People's Pilot, Volume 5, Number 8, Rensselaer, Jasper County, 15 August 1895 — HORR AND HARVEY. [ARTICLE]

HORR AND HARVEY.

LAST DAY OF THE GREAT FINANCIAL DEBATE. The Question of the Advisability of the United States Resuming Free Coinage Without International Consent Final Subject of Discussion. (Copyrighted, 1895, by Axel F. Hatch.) Chicago, July 30. —The Horr-Harvey debate was brought to a close to-day. The question of the wisdom of the United States returning to free coinage was the main subject discussed. The condensed report follows: The Question at Issue. Mr. Horr —* * * We are discussing a great question, and now to-day we come down to the gist of this whole business. The question is, can this , nation alone establish the old ratio of 16 to 1 and maintain it among the nations of the world? Mr. Harvey—* * • In beginning the debate to-day, I hand to the stenographer a table, from pages 184 to 186 of the mint report for 1893, of the gold and silver coined in this country from 1792 to 1873, and make it a part of the debate. Ido this to remove the representation that has gone all over the country that for the first half of the century we were on a silver basis and from 1850 to 1873 we were on a gold basis. The best answer to that argument is the production of the table of coins themselves. The statement that gold did not seek the mints for the first fifty years and that silver did not seek the mints for the last thirty years pfior to 1873 is not true. Page 130 of the United States Coinage Laws, Appendix and Statistics, 1894 —I now hand the book to Mr. Horr —gives the approximate stock of money in the world. The stock of gold there given is 33,901,900,000; the stock of silver there given is 33,931,300,000. This estimate includes gold and silver coins and gold and silver bullion available for coinage into money. I have given it to you as expressed in dollars. As expressed in space or bulk there is, if each were melted into a solid mass, the cube of 22 feet of gold and the cube of 66 feet of silver. In chapter Vof ■“Coin’s Financial School” you are told how to make this calculation. But it is sufficient in this debate that we deal with these two metals as expressed in dollars. The quantity of these two metals available for coinage into money is what is left after the demand for them of the arts and manufactures are supplied. As civilization has grown the use in arts and manufactures of these metals has grown out of proportion to the Increase in ( population. Report of the Director of the Mint. , From Their Organization, by Calendar Years. Silver Coinage. Calendar Half Years. Dollars. Dollars. 1793-5 .$ 204,791 3 161,572 1796 72,920 1797 7,776 1,659 1798 ‘ 327,536 1799 423,515 1800 220,920 1801 54,454 15,144 1802 41,650 14,945 1803 66,064 15,807 1804 19,570 78,259 1805 321 105,861 1806 419.788 1807 525,788 1808 684,300 1809 702,905 1810 638,138 18H 601,822 1812 814,029 1813 620,951 1814 519,537 1816 23,575 1817 607,783 1818 980,161 1819 1,104,000 1820 375,561 1821 652,898 1822 779,786 1823 847,100 1824 1,752,447 1825 1,471,583 1826 2,002,090 1827 2,746,700 1828 1,537,600 . 1829 1,856,078 1830 2,382,400 1831 2,936,830 1832 2,398,500 1833 2,603,000 1834 3,206,002 1835 2,676,003 -1836 1,000 3,273,100 1837 1,814,910 1838 1,773,000 1839 300 1,748,768 1840 61,005 1,145,054 1841 173,000 355,500 1842 184,618 1,484,882 1843 165,100 3,056,000 1844 20,000 1,885,500 1845 24,500 1,341,500 1846 169,600 2,257,000 1847 140,750 1,870,000 1848 15,000 1,880,000 1849 62,600 1,781,000 1850 47,500 1,341,500 1851 1,300 301,375 1852 1,100 110,565 1853 46,110 2,430,354 1854 33,140 4,111,000 1855 26,000 2,288,725 1856 63,500 1,903,500 1857 94,000 1,482,000 1858 ,• 5,998,000 1859 636,500 2,074,000 1860 733,930 1,032,850 1861 78,500 2,078,950 1862 12,090 802,175 1863 27,660 709,830 1864 31,170 518,785 1865 47,000 593,450 1866 * 49,625 899,812 1867 60,325 810,162 1868 182,700 769,100 1869 424,300 725,950 1870 445,463 829,758 1871 1,117,136 1,741,655 1872 1 118.690 866,772

1870 1871 1872

Dimes, half-dimes and 3-cent pieces ire omitted from report. One Nation Can Not. Mr. Horr —I’had just started to show that no nation alone can establish the old ratio of 16 to 1. I state now that I do not believe Mr. Harvey thinks any one nation can do it —at least he does not propose to keep that ratio. He says in his book “they say it is not bimetallism unless the two metals stay at exactly the parity of 16 to 1. These men do not know what bimetallism is. It may be desirable to let one metal go, as it would be now with both as primary money. We may have bimetallism and bimetallic prices whether one metal has a tendency to leave us more than the other or not, and if desirable to stop this leaving a change in the ratio will do it, and if necessary we can do it so as to set the other metal going so that we can feed Europe either metal we choose.” So he is not a stickler for 16 to 1 at all. Now I start out with this proposition: Nations by their laws do not fix the value of things. They can not do it if they try. The actual value of the two metals at the present time is wide apart. The ratio of 16 to 1 is today a thing of the past; the value of the two nletals in the markets of the world has changed all this discussion that we have had. How it happened to have been done, what brought it about, does not bear upon this question today. The figures 16 to 1 do not represent the commercial value of the two today, nobody claims they do. ♦ * * It is useless to talk about fixing a comparative ratio between any two substances by legislation. Is there a man living who thinks all the nations in the world combined could fix a ratio of value between a bushel of wheat and a bushel of oats? Try it on. You will see where you will land. If you have a small crop of wheat up will go your ratio, and law has no more effect on it than it has to make water run up hill instead of down. Does any one think that by passing an act you could stay the floods of Niagara and make them run up stream? Why not? Well, there is a little difficulty in the way. The law of gravitation stands between you and the accomplishment of such an act. Consequently the same thing occurs when you come to the ratio between any two articles. They are determined by the different conditions over which legislators have no control.

Would Raise Prices. Now, Mr. Harvey and I both agree that the free coinage of silver will decrease the measure of value used here In this country. He doesn’t deny that. The burden of his whole talk in this debate is that we ought to have a cheaper measure; that the unit is worth too much. So now we agree that it will change the measure. Mr. Harvey says then, that is what ought to be done, because, he says, the whole world is in debt and our country is on the brink of ruin, because the present dollar is too valuable. That is his position. That in a position from which I differ. He proposes to relieve the distress of the people by letting them pay what they owe in cheaper money. I know I do not represent you in that respect. Mr. Harvey. I answer him, “No, the debts of the day, the bulk of them, have all been contracted with the gold dollar as the measure and to relieve the payment of them in any way by a trick of this kind of repudiation.” Mr. Harvey—When I reach Mr. Horr’s argument as to legislation not controlling the value of gold and silver, my answer I think will be satisfactory. I now continue reading from Professor Suess. ♦ ♦ Here in the United States we produce a little more gold than we use in the arts, but the portion left for use as money is growing less. On page 102 of the book on coinage laws, etc., heretofore referred to, you get the annual gold product of the United States. On page 455 of the same book, you get the gold furnished by the mints to be used in the arts and manufactures for the years 1880 to 1892 inclusive. I put these two together and here is the result. I hand this table to the stenographer to Insert in the report:

Gold Production Since 1880. Production of gold in the United States and amount used in the arts for the years 1880-1892: Years. Production. Use in Arts. 1880536,000,000 >10,962,600 1881 34,700,000 11,770,700 1882 32,500,000 10,868,000 1883 30,000,000 14,458,800 1884 30,800,000 14,500,000 1885 31,800,000 11,824,742 1886 35,000,000 13,069,529 1887 33,000,000 14,810,346 1888 33,175,000 16,514,842 1889 32,800,000 16,697,056 1890 32,845,000 17,655,960 1891 33,175,000 19,686,916 1892 33,000,000 19,329,074 We thus see that while we produced of gold >36,000,000 in 1880, we produced only >33,000,000 in 1892, with population larger and necessity for gold greater at the latter period. But the comparison is more serious when you notice what is left for use as money at the latter period as compared with the former. In 1880 there was left for coinage after deducting what was used in the arts >25,000,000, while in 1892 less than >14,000,000 was left. This estimate does not include the >3,500,000 before estimated as melted up in the coins by manufacturers, and does not include gold lost by hoarding, accident, fire or abrasion. Silver of the World. We have seen that the supply of silver in 1894 available for use as money was >3,931,100,000 (see page 130,Coinage Laws and Statistics, for the figures I am about to read); >950,000,000 of this silver is in use as money in India, >725,000,000 in China, >88,000,000 in Mexico, Central and South America, >81,300,000 in Japan, >llO-,000,000 in the Straits. The remainder, or about >1,900,000,00<), is in use as toV »n - r or occupying

the quasi position of limping bimetallism in the other nations of the w'orld. The larger part of this is divided as follows: United States 624.090,000. ■ United Kingdom $112,000,000, France $500,000,000. Germany $215,000,000. Spain $155,000,000, and the remainder l among the smaller nations of the earth. The foregoing figures are all coinage value in our dollars. A natural inquiry is, what becomes lof the silver we are producing? I ■ quote from an interview with G. H. ■ Gibson, a prominent New York stock- : broker who has just returned from Lon- , don, in the Chicago Post, a gold standard paper, of the Sth inst.: “I talked wkh Sir Hector M. Hay, a member of the firm doing the largest bullion business in the world. In reply to a direct inquiry as to how mu • sil- ■ ver bullion he regarded as existing in i the market in Europe, he stated his j belief that the'visible supply in Europe did not exceed 3,000,000 pounds sterling. “Sir Charles Freemantle, the master of the British mint on Tower Hill, told me five years ago. that there was no stock of silver bullion to speak of in Europe. It came by every steamer and went away by every steamer. On inquiry of one of the highest statistical authorities in London the fact was confirmed that despite the demonetization of silver by all of the great nations, including India, the use of silver in the arts has grown so wonderfully that there is a ridiculously small supply in the market at any one time.” Last Year'* Silver Production. The production of silver in the United States last year was bullion value $40,000,000, and we exported bullion value $37,164,713. Thus there was a demand in the balance of the world for substantially all of our silver. These are the facts, and this is the situation before us as we begin the argument for independent action of the United States. Let us z first sound a few principles: The more costly either of these metals become, the greater the demand for it among the rich for use as ornaments. Where the dearer is used exclusively for primary money, it is the one that is hoarded. When gold and silver were both used as money in their rights silver was hoarded by the plain people and was brought forth to serve them in time of need. Gold is principally hoarded by the rich to serve a purpose in bulling the money market. Hoarding of silver by the people was beneficial; hoarding of gold is an injury. The cause of hoarding in the two instances is different. In the first instance it is to serve a natural law providing for the future; in the second instance it is a commercial motive affecting injuriously the community. This is one of the reasons why silvef has always proven the more stable money. Gold is not regular in production. I here hand the stenographer a table showing the production of gold for the world for the years 1849 to 1892, taken from page 103, Coinage Laws and Statistics, to be here inserted:

Production of Gold for the World. Year. ' -nount. 1849 ’.000,000 1850 4;,h’>0,000 1851 67,600,000 1852 132,750,090 1853 155,450,000 1854 127,450,000 1855 135,075,000 1856 147,600,000 1857 133,275,000 1858 124,659,000 1859 124,859,000 1860 119,250,000 1861 113,800,000 1862 107,750,000 1863 106,950,090 1864 113,000,000 1865 120,200,000 1866 121,100,000 1867 104,025,000 1868 109,025,000 1869 106,225,000 1870 106,050,000 1871 107,000,000 1872 99,600,000 1873 96,200,000 1874 90,750,000 1875 97,500,000 1876 103,700,000 1877 1> .000,000 1878 119,000,000 1879 109,000,000 1880 106,500;000 1881 103,000,000 1882 102,000,000 1883 95,400,000 1884 101,700,000 1885 108,400,000 1886 106,000,000 1887 105,775,000 1888 110,197,000 1889 123,489,000 1890 118,849,000 1891 126,184,000 1892 138,860,000 It will be seen that the world produced more gold in the year 1853 than it has in any year since then. With increasing population and increasing de-’ mand for gold there has been no increase in the annual supply since 1853. If we go back to 1849 (see the table heretofore introduced), the irregularity is more marked. Combined Production. The production of the two metals combined is more regular than either separately, and is safer to rely on for a stable money measurement of values than either could be separately. Where two metals are relied on for money, with the right of the debtor to pay in either, if the demand for money is sufficient, this demand regulates the commercial value of the two metals at the ratio fixed by law. Supply and demand affect the value of these metals the same as all other property. When the law bestows the full function of money upon these metals, it creates a use for them that they did not before have. (Applause.) A new use to an article adds to its value. The naw use of corn for making glucose,

candy and molasses has Increased its value. The extent to which corn can be supplied is virtually unlimited, and with other farm productions unprofitable. the corn crop will increase and the price will drop. In the case of the two metals we are considering, they differ from corn in this: The use of these metals for money,, when given full money functions, is comparatively unlimited. The supply, unlike corn, is limited. Their geological formation, and the experience of mankind in their search for and development prove this. The abnormal demand for money in all ages, now at a tension; the fact that tens of thousands of men are continually searching for the metal from which it is made, and the further fact that all that is now in existence outside of useful articles and ornaments can, if melted down, be put into three rooms of this .building, prove conclusively that the supply is limited. We can, therefore, better understand the effect to be produced by the United States throwing open its mints to silver and conferring upon that metal the full functions of money when I shall reach it directly. Don't Want Cheap Money. Mr. Horr —* ♦ * Now, I ask the army of professionals, do you think it would benefit you to vote down the price of the dollar in which you are paid? They are all paid in money for their work. Will you be better off by getting just the same number of dollars but having them worth just half as much? Well, they say, we don’t want you to submit that proposition to us. We fellows that have studied so that we have got a little bit of gray matter so that it is somewhat active in our brains —you don’t want to ask us whether we will be benefited by making us think we are getting the old pay, when we are only getting half as much. Would they vote no? No doubt about it. They say we want the best money, the money that will buy the most of the comforts and the necessities of life. Aren't they right about that? * * * I next call up those engaged in trades and transportation. That includes all the railroad hands, all the steamboat hands. That Includes all the people who work in different trades. Typewriters, men and women, they have o’ltivated themselves so they can do g.,od work and the world pays them for it. The brakemen —it includes people who take risks.

Gold and Silver Cubit*. Mr. Harvey—l wish I had time in this debate to characterize the last speech of Mr. Horr as it deserves, but I can only stop now to say that when I said all the gold and silver in the world available.for money could be put into three rooms in this building I knew It would make Mr. Horr wince. The statement that all the gold in the world available for money can be put in the space of twenty-four feet is one of the arguments that worries him the most. It It an object lesson, and if Mr. Horr were on our side of this case, with his inimitable wit and sarcasm, he would go around with a picture, a twenty-two foot block of canvass, and he would have it on every stage where he spoke, and he would ridicule the gold gamblers of the world until he would satisfy his audience that the man who would advocate that that twentytwo foot block should supply the people of the world with primary money had a soul In him no larger than a mustard seed. (Applause.) ♦ ♦ ♦ There is great concern among some of our citizens that if free coinage of silver is adopted those holding gold obligations will be paid in silver, also that gold will leave us, and a debtor who owes gold will not be able to get It without paying a high premium in order to discharge his debt. Both of these questions can be answered together. Meeting of Value*. Gold obligations should be paid In gold and not In silver. To secure the gold with which to do this would not be so difficult as It is now. It would operate this way: As soon as the United States opens its mints and confers on silver the full functions of money, with the right to no one thereafter to make a debt payable in gold (for under the bimetallic law there would be no such right), the demand for gold would be withdrawn except to pay previous debts thus payable. When you withdraw the demand in such a pronounced way from an article it must decline in value. (Applause.) With the demand thus suddenly thrown on silver to supply the United States with money its value would rapidly advance. (Applause.) You have suddenly transferred the demand from one metal to the other. One must necessarily decline and the other advance relatively. Hence, you could buy the gold cheaper then than now. (Applause.) Mr. Horr —I was just talking of the great army of people of the United States who are classified under the head of trades and transportation. We have of them 3,325,962; at least three million of that army get their wages given them each day, week or month, for the work they have done. You ask them whether they want a dollar that will buy a good many of the things they need or one that will only buy a part as much as they now receive, and what will be their answer? Why, m'y friend Harvey seemed to think that if he could get me schooled on that question of silver coinage and get me on to the stump on that subject that I would rattle things up wonderfully by carrying around a chart showing the size of the gold in the world. He is mistaken. ’The size has nothing to do with the value. You may be able to do it, Harvey, but I couldn’t refer to a principle and a picture of that kind without stultifying myself. A man who had M much brains as a chipmunk would

know better, would know I was trying to mislead him, because size is not the measure of commercial value. You can put a diamond worth a million dollars, the Regents, all inside of a quail’s j egg, therefore it isn’t — Mr. Harvey—But we would not consider the proposition to make money , out of it for the world. Horr Ridicules Idea. Mr. Horr —We don’t make money out ; of it. No; but I wouldn’t consider the j proposition reasonable to go about claiming that it had anything to do with the value of a metal or that you could base any calculation in reference to value on it. It is so ridiculous. But I must proceed. The next witnesses I want to call up are those in domestic and personal service, the hired girls of the United States, the men who sweep the streets, the men who do the personal duties for people in this great country of ours. There are 4,360,506. They are all of them paid wages. They all of them depend upon what they receive each day to find out how well they are going to live the next day. Is there an idiot anywhere on the face of the earth who thinks these men and women would be benefited by giving them less for their day’s work of the things they need —for that is what he proposes to do. Take a vote and see where you will come out among that class of wage-earners. Ask them, do you want the dollar cheaper than it is now? Do you want to go down town to get a supply for your family and receive only about half what you get now? Do you think they would be long in voting on the question? That is what he proposes to do do. That is 4,360,506 that will be added to the persons that that kind of legislation will bring ruin upon. That is the reason why I protest against it. Now I come to the list of those manufacturing and mechanical industries. All factory hands, all skilled laborers in the United States. Have you any idea how many there are? Five million ninety-one thousand six hundred and sixty-nine. Go round among them; ask them, do you want the measure of value reduced? Do you want every dollar you earn cut in two? Do you want people to hold up to you that you are getting wages so and so, and then give you half that, instead of the wages you have earned? Do you think thej’ would be long In deciding this question? You want to take from them what they can earn with their labor. They will all of them protest against it. A* to Farmer*. The next is agriculture, fisheries, mining. There are nine million thirteen thousand two hundred and one. A part of all those who are in debt more than they have got property with which to pay, would tell you they would like to scale (town their debts and pay but 50 cents on the dollar. Ah, but wait a moment. Of those, three million four thousand and fifteen are farm hands, men who work by the day, men who get their pay in cash, not in productions. How will they vote? There is not any question about this. Do you think you are going to fool the people of this great republic by trying to make them think they will be better off not to get over half as much as they now get for every day’s work they do? That is the proposition he proposes for the purpose of blessing them. This makes a grand total of people who live by labor, by human effort in the United States—because this does not include a few people who live on legacies and incomes provided by other people for them—a grand total of twenty million seven hundred and thirty-five thousand six sixty-one people. Of those people, sixteen million of them receive their pay in wages from day to day and week to week, and large numbers of the others are dependent upon good money in order to be prosperous in this world. ****** Attack* Horr'* Humor. Mr. Harvey—Mr. Horr prefers to be humorous. This is a serious matter with the people of the United States. We regard it, on our side of this question, in a serious way. If they can divert the minds of the people by treating the question as they treat it, then if it is a fact that property is accumulating in the hands of the few, and the many are becoming poorer and poorer, and we are traveling in the same route that all republics are traveling, to monarchy and despotism, then his argument is a good argument to make on the other side of the question, to keep us going in that direction. I will only answer one thing in his last speech: He says that It is unfair to have two measures in mohey, that it should be the same as in the measure of length and weight, and make illustrations for comparisons. Now, money is not the same, cannot be considered in the same way that you can consider weight and measure. In money we rely for bimetallism upon two materials, two substances. There is more stability in that than relying upon one metal. For bread food, we rely upon wheat, corn and rice. For meat, we rely upon beef, pork and mutton, and beef cannot rise inordinately high as long as pork and mutton are in competition with it. You must have in a financial system a balance like the two metals of which the pendulum of a clock is made, made of two metals to counteract each other, so in your financial system it is safer to have two metals than to rely on one. And when you have them under control of the law and put them each in competition with the other, then the one cannot advance without the other taking its place, and if the nation is large enough to dominate the commerce of the world they will stay at a parity as they did for all the hundreds of years that we have a record of prior to 1873. (Applause.) You yourself on a false money

measurement when you use one metal which the money bankers can corner at their pleasure. Do not be misled on this financial question by any sophistry, but study for yourselves, and you will arrive at the same conclusion that I have. Gold will not go out of this country. Mr. Harvey Close*. If we have free coinage of silver th© use of money in the United States will establish a parity between the two, and then gold will be held. A man settling a balance with us In Europe, if he cannot get silver to send he must send his gold. The argument I have made in this debate today will convince you that upon the United States adopting the free coinage of silver its extensive use as money will take the metal out of the markets of the world and force a parity as it was forced prior to 1873. With independent action of the United States other nations will follow our example. We have allowed England to set the example for the world. The United States when she exerts her power is greater than England. (Applause.) And when she exerts it the other nations of the earth will take hope. France will follow. She said at the conference of Brussels, “We are here to hear your proposition and are ready to accede to it. Name it, what is it?” Mexico and South America will be with us; China and Japan and all the weaker nations of the world, and with France by our side we will have more strength, more influence upon the metals of the world than tho Latin Union and the United States had in 1873, when they were at a parity. (Applause.) All we have to do is to have the heart to go ahead and do tho right. (Applause.) The “way to resume” was to resume, and the way to remonetize is to remonetize. (Applause.) Creditors the world over when they can control the legislation of the country, can dictate what money shall be named in the bond, and England is doing that; the necessities of tho people make them sign the bonds to get the money. To relieve the necessities of today they will chance the future and sign the bonds. But the day of reckoning is coming, and English war ships are in all the harbors of tho smaller countries; the Monroe doctrine has been violated in the western hemisphere by reason of the gold standard. What we want to do is to say to tho creditor, “You cannot name in your bond gold alone.”

Mr. Horr (’Jonah. Mr. Horr —This debate is drawing to a close. I desire to state to this audience that silver has had its day as a money of final redemption. It will always be used as money for the purposes for which nature adopted it. Gold has come to stay because gold is better adapted than silver for the great transactions of American life. It hag come to stay because the people of the whole civilized world like it, believe In it, prefer it. (Applause.) * * ♦ ♦ Listen, Brother Harvey. The sun is the center of our system. The'world revolves around the sun and the moon revolves around the world, the lesser always around the greater. So in the use ’of metals as money, you should plan the more valuable where civilization demands It and make that the center, silver to revolve around It, and copper around that, but the yellow metal should always be the center ag Is the yellow orb of the universe. (Applause.) Don’t forget it. The people of this country, Mr. Harvey, are going to decide this question. Ido not say that they will decide it as I think they ought to, but I will say this, if they decide It as you think they will, I will base my reputation as a prophet and as a man of sense on the result, and if I live—l may not— if I do not I will look down from my seat in the heavens, (laughter) and I will see this nation of ours suffering as I have told you today. No people can violate the great laws of the universe and go unhurt. A single standard, the best metal in the world, should be used as the basis of money and the center of the monetary system. If I am right time will demonstrate it. I desire now to thank you for the kind treatment I have received at your hands. The little discomfort that I did receive was not your doing. I have nothing but the kindest feelings for Mr. Harvey in this whole controversy. Of course It is hard for me to see how a man can believe as he doe»> (laughter), but on that account I do not denounce him. He spoke in his remarks the other day of some unkind words that I had used in conversation about him here in the city. I suppose I know the report he refers to, and I want to say I never uttered a word of? the kind published in the newspapers, not a syllable. (Applause.) I discussed this question from principle. If I know my own heart I want to do what is best for the people of this nation. I believe that bimetallism undertaken on the plan of Mr. Harvey, by passing a law and placing this nation on a silver basis, on the plan that, is today in use in Mexico, China and a few of the lower grade nations of the world, would bring disaster to the business Interests and to the working people of this entire country. (Applause.) It is against that that I am arguing, and if I am wrong I am not to blame.

The debate then closed and many resolutions of thanks to Illinois club, judges, clerks, assistants, etc., were unanimously adopted. Both speakers spoke kindly of the manner in which the Inter Ocean and Record reported the debate. (THE END.)