Indiana State Sentinel, Volume 10, Number 22, Indianapolis, Marion County, 31 October 1850 — Page 1

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., . . , , . . !.... " " ' ' " ' ' ' ' - " i I, - i i " " ', . .. T i ' - ' ' - ' - ' l ' ' - ' " " "" - - - I ii - 111 ii WILLIAM J. BROWN, Editor. 5 T7i7 T T TT T. V - JSOII-WEEKLY,.. OO AUSTIN II. BROWN, Publisher. 5 . y , " VV ' ' WEEKLY, ........ 200 VOL. X. INDIANAPOLIS, THURSDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1850 V : NO. 22. ' , . . ' - -

INDIANA STATE SENTINEL: A GAZETTE OF THE PEOPLE, . ET-OfEce in THE SENTINEL BUILDINGS A'orth Side Washington, near Meridian St., OPPOSITE ODD FEIXOVTS HALL,

AUSTIN II. BROWN, Mlislicr. THE SEMI-WEEKLY EDITION Is published every Wednesday and Saturday and Tri-Weekly dur- - in:; lite Sessiou of the Legislature, at FOUB E0LLA23 A TEAR, Invariably in Advance. THE WEEKLY EDITION I published every Thursday, and i furni-hed to subscribers at the ioliow iiig very low pact: One Copy, one year, 62 00 Three Cpie, one year, 5 UO Five CopKi, one year, 8 CO Ten Copit, (in Clubs) one year, ; 10 00 One Oopr. six niont;is.. .: 1 00 One Copy, tlirec months, .. ... 60 The Honey, in all casss, to accompany sntscriptions. iT7"A:iy pcron ndinir us a Club of Ten, with cab. at the rate of ?I.t0 each, s'.iall have a ropy srrntit for one ear. Kor a greater turner tiuui ten. I.'ie pruluny wi.l be increased in proport.ou. 7"" All Post .Master an? requested to act a Agent., and, as such. ?.y a remit decision I' l!ie Department, Uieyare authorized to frank letters for the benefit of subscribers. - CAll poper will be stopped at the end of the term pnid for, unless the ieripuo!i is renewed, except to loose Willi whom we have unset! ctt business accounts. Xy-Drup Let:er, addressed to this office, tri'2 not to taken out w'ess t-ie posture i paid. 'yTin .ei A lieriisemcHls. must be paid tor when presented, r l;iy wiil Jirt appear. . . "J-Si Jnoniituuf Gommvni-iMon will receive attention at ll.is 7ee. 'lA-lrertinments roii?t be ban.led in by 10 o'clock. A. M , on Mn Jf, Wednesday, uud Friday, to insure insertion in the Tri-AVek-!y. VThi Paptr oiTer inducements to Advertisers equal to any Cier elablilnneut in the Slate. RATES OF ADVERTISING. Wo wi:l advertise at Lie following rutoa in our respective Weeklie; rntent Medicines, et ..'....51.30 00 per column. Sa-uit-.'a Advertisement 23 b0 p r qr. tot. Ix-crd nl oi'irr dvert.;ns at .'i0 cent per square of 250 tms, for trat insertion, and 3 ceitl lor eacu suLscijiu-nt uisrrium. Al'.-TiN H. HROWN, JOHN D DEKKEES. CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. REPORTED FOR THE INDI.VXA STATE SEN'TIXEL. - ' ' Tuesday. October 22, 1S50. Tho Convention was ojicncJ this morning, bv prayer, by the Rov. Mr. Hall. The Convention resnmoil the consideration ftf the resolulioa proviJin?; for a!M!ihinp; the grand jury system, an! sulistittition puhlie examii):ition. 3Ir. Pettit ad.Jres.xed the Convention in favr of the resolution, in a speech of two hours in length, and was replied to hy Mr. Newman of Wayne. It would le iinposiidt to do justice to these '-ntlemen. ly any sketch of their remarks, and the puhlic will !c heiter able to iudo-e of their arguments, w hen rtihüshcd at length, from t..o hands of the '. renographer. It may not t be amiss, however, t stare, that they foilv sustained ' their hiii reptttati ;n as gentlemen ol'deeiJed leal ahilitj. The debute, thus t':ir, has leen hitrhly tntcrfsttnij, ; and will he lokel for with interest hy the puhüc, as ma- ' ny other distinguished jrentK-men are yet to speak upon , this intercstinij question of reform. " j I he time for atljnurnui'jat having amvcu, lr. Gibson moved lor tiie n.su-il rrecs until o clock; which motion prevailed. AFTKRXOOV SESSIONS Mr. May. in lelia!f of linnsi-lf and others, presented a prot -st ainst the election of a public printer lT this Convention; which was ordered to be entered upon the Journals. Mr. Petttt now modified his resolution in relation to grand juries, by adding the following proviso, to-wit: "Provided that alter the expiration of five years the Legislature may restore the grand jury system." Mr. Gibson now continued the debate, in opposition to the resolution. Until yesterday, he said, he t'id not think that there was a serious intention to abolish the JErand jury ystem; bat finding that there were those on this hVwr who were determined to press the question ; he felt it Li duty to resist it. The question had not been agitated in Ins county. He then proceeded with his arguments at length, and bing the first remarks he had made, at any considerable length during the session, he va listened to with much attention. Mr. Cbirk of Tippecanoe also opposed the resolution; after wl.icb. Mr. .JJaseoni " withdrew his amendment; "When Mr. Holman moved to amend, by striking oat and inserting as !i ll ws: 1. That the pddie will should not b? restricted by unnecessary limitations of the legislative power. 2. TLat t..e manner of preferring and the mode of froseeuting a criminal accusation, are matte's purely egislative, and should be left to the legislative departmefit of the ;overiiment. ' . 3. That the committee on criminal law lie instructed to omit the words indictment," "presentment' or 'impeachment," where the same occur ia Sections 12 and 13 of Article 1st of tie Constitution. - MrBascom thea proposed to amend the amendment, by instructing the co.TimiUee to enquire into the expedicneY of the measure. Mr. Biddlu desired to make some remark before the question was taken, and, for that purpose, moved an adi''umment; which motion prevailed. Ho consequently ias the floor for to-morrow. Vw'epxesday, October 23, 1330. The Convention was opened by prayer, by Rev. Mr. Ames. . y On motion of Mr. Morrison of Washington, the communication of the Cahir of the Slate Bank of Indiana, in relation to ths condition of the Sii.king Fund was re ferred to the coin mit lire on education. , Mr. Alexander B. Conduit, Delegate from Morgan, appeared, produced his credentials, was sworn iuto oiCcc and took his scat. Mr. Morrison of iV. then offered the following resolution: Resolved. That the committee oa education, be intructeJ to inquire inu the expediency of reporting a provision in tho amended Constitution, requiring that the proceeds from the sales of tll lands which have been, or may hereafter be granted by the United State to this State, for common school purposes, and the proceeds of all lands or other property given by individuals, or appropriated by the State lor like purposes, and the proceeds from the tales of all lands that have been, or may ls hereafter granted to this State, and which shall not be granted for any other.speeifie object, shall be and remain a perpetual fund, the interest and income of which, together with the rents of all such lands us may remain unsold, shall be immediately appropriated and annually applied to the maintainance of common schools and for no other purpose whatever ; adopted. Mr. McFarland submitted a resolution, requesting the President of the State Bank to furnish, at the earliest period, the number of Stockholders in each Branch: the irgreate amount of loans and discounts in each on the l?t of of October; tho amount mad? upon bills of exchange; the aggregate indebtedness of Stockholders, Loth as principal and security; estimated value of real estate; what length of time any of the Branches have refused tu redeem their' paper with specie; and what was the rate charged (or exchanges on New York during the supen-ion ; which resolution was adopted. Br Mr. Robinson, as to tho expediency of a clan sc in the Constitution, securing to the legal voters of each coar.tr, the riaht to vote for State tod county officers, at the annual elections, at any precinct in the county; not alovt'-Mr. By Mr. Turrr. js to the exp dlency of a clause in the ConstittttbHi l'r tliC election or appointment f an attorney frrrtTral and prosecuting attorneys; adopted. - By Mr. Alexander, as to tli5 expediency of a clause i.i tile Con-tit tit ion, that tbt Governor, on granting a pardon or remitting n tine, shall give his reasons, to be li!"d in the office ,f the Secretary tf S'afe; adopted. By Mr. NoiT;n.'er, ns to the expediency of prohibitin? .counties from taking stock in any cor pora lion, without flip san'-tiort .f majority of the voters; adopted. Br Mr. Wiley that the free enjoyment of religions fpin';rns and worship shall always be allowed, and no person shall b" rendered ineompetctit to 1 a witness on O'-count of his religions belief, cc. ; adopted. B v Mr. Graham of Warrick, that the Auditor rnmmuftiente to the Convention the nuraW of white mule itiLahitants above the age of tcnty-one, kc; adopted

By Mr. Prather, es to the expediency of providing that no act of the Legislature should dispose of tho estates of minor heirs, during their minority; adopted. . By Mr. Hawkins, as to the expediency of providing in the new Constitution, that a majority of the legal voters of this State, at a general election, by a direct vote upon the subject, may extend the right ot universal suffrage. . Mr. Kelso remarked, as the term universal suffrage was generally understood, he could see no objections to the resolution; but, if it was understood to include negroes and women, lie was agaiiiit it. Mr. Hawkins thought the resolution was sufficiently definite to lie understood. It was no more nor less than giving power to the voters of tiie State to determine who should exercise the elective frnnchise. Should the people determine, at the polls, to admit negroes to vote, there could be no valid objections urged against it. It was a democratic doctrine, that the w ill of the people should govern.. Mr. Hovey moved to amend, so as to except "negroes, inula t toes and Indians;" when Mr. Colfix moved that tho proposed amendment be laid upon the table; which motion dil not prevail, ayes 36, noes 10.". . The hour having arrived for considering the special order the resolution abolishing the grand jury system, ice., the pending resolution was laid over lor that purpose; on motion of Mr. Robinson, the order of business was suspended, and he introduced a peliiion from the citizens of Decatur, Jennings. Rivilcy and Bartholomew, in relation to the boundaries of said counties; which was referred to the committee on county and township organization. - Mr. Foley offered u remonstrance on the same sulject ; referred to tho same committee. The debate on the resolution, providing for aliolishing the grand jury system and substituting public examinations, was now resumed. Mr. Biddle having the floor, opposed the resolution, stating that he would have remained silent did he not believe that the question was in danger. Gentlemen had found, by this time, that the mover of tho resolution was in earnest. He is always in earnest, on great questions of national or State policy. He has placed his resolution fairly before the Convention, and it was his duty, to the best of his ability, .to meet it, and if he fell, he would, in the language of the gentleman from Wabash, fall in a good cause. He then proceeded Jo oppose the resolution at length. He took up the arguments of the gentleman from Tipjeennoc, (Mr. Pet tit,) one by one and discussed them in a very interesting manner, stating that he placed the grand jury system along side of our great bill of rights, the National and State Constitutions, the habeas corpus, and the trial by jury. He said, vith much feeling, that not until he could be shown a President able to govern the country without a Congress, a Governor who shall be able to dictate laws to the State, through a Lcuislaturc, without investigation, could he wish to have a Court, for the administra

tion of justice, wiriiout a grand jury. The discussion was continued by Mr. Nilcs. He admitted that grand juries had, to a great extent, answered the purposes of the past; that, with the gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. Newman,) he also admitted that thev had been a tetror to evil doers. But he would not ad mit that they had ever been the bulwark of our lilicrties. They had been an engine of oppression to many, and it was a remedy of these evils that he had the greatest desire to accomplish. That, in an excited state of the publie mind, grand juries were liable to partake ofthat leelini; and, so far as the ends of justice are perverted by siu-h influences, era ml juries would afford no t rotection. He opposed, with much feeling the secret character of tho grand jury system, and remarked, that it was in direct conflict with the spirit of the age. He was not. however, in favor of pullins down a system, without being able to erect another. He opposed the plan, offered by the gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pcttit,) of substituting examinations before justices of the peace, ns he believed they would not answer the purpose. His opinion was, that we should wait until the public mind was prepared lor a change. Ho suggested that a kind of court of inquiry might be established, to be taken from the justices of the peace of a county, to consist of three or five persons, who should tiiko cognizance of all minor offences, such ns retailing spirituous liquors, gaming. Sec. That this court should try these petiy offences, and punish the offenders; and, in addition to this, that they should act as a court of intjuiiy, with power ta investigate tho higher crimes of Monies, &.e.f that might have been committed in the county, and with power also to recognize to tho court, where there was a strong probability of ouill; but that these examinations should be made in public, where the party accused might be heard. He had only thrown out his reaiurks in relation to this court, as a' suggestion for the consideration of the Convention. In conclusion he said, no man should go farther than he did. in favor of the right of the tiial by jury. His right arm should fall from his body before he would attempt to destroy it; Init the grand jury system, with its inquisitorial powers, better becoming the past than the present age, would continue to meet his opposition. It being near half past twelve o'clock, the Convention adjourned. AFTERXOOX SESSIO.V ' ' The Convention resumed the consideration of the resolution, providing for abolishing grand juries. Mr. Rariden said, that w hile the whole subject was fiesh in his mind, he desired an opportunity, though not strictly in order, to replv to tho gentleman from Tippecanoe, Mr. Peltit; which request was granted by the Convention, and he proceeded with his remarks at considerable length, in opposition to the resolution. The discussion was continued by Mr. Steele in favor of the abolition of grand juries; w hen Mr. Kelso remarked, that in the whole Constitution there-were no such words used as "grand juries;" hence, in his opinion, all the eloquence that had been used, was urged against w hat ntiuht be called a man of straw. It was true, that it is provided, that no person shall be brought to trial, in certain ceses, except on 'presentment, indictment or impeachment ;" but these might be made by other tribunals than grand juries. The Constitution is silent on this subject, and he thought a prohibitory clause would le improper and unnecessary, the matter being now left with the Legislature. Mr. Howe continued the debate in opjxsition to the resolution. His plan was, that no inquiry should be made by a grand jury, except in capital cases, and those punishable by confinement in tho peuitentiary. The minor offences, he thought, might be tried before properly constituted courts. He was opposed to abolishing the system ; but, if retained, ho would be in favor of making it the duty of the grand jurv to hear evidence on the part of the accused, as well as on the part of the State. Mr. Mather supported the resolution. He had been a rosceuting attoi ncy for two j-cars." Eighteen men had een sent to the penitentiary while he w as in office, and in every case the persons had been recognized to court. He could not see w herein the grnnd jury had been of any use in these cases. He believed there was an inherent fccJing in the country, that would always prompt the citizens to bring the offenders, in flagrant crimes, to justice. Mr. Hendricks would support the proposition or amendment of the gentleman from Dearlorn (Mr. Holman.) He denied the position, that our present Constitution was silent on the subject of grand juries. Ho was in fa vor of leaving ty whole question open to legislative enactment. Ho reviewed the whole arguments that had been made, to how that no substitute for grand juries could be agreed upon by the Couvention. ; Mr. Lockhart moved tha. tho Convention adjoin ii; which motion prevailed. ... Indianapolis, 0-t. 22, 150. To The Editor or the Sentinel: In your paper of this dato in trc reports of the Constitutional CouvcuUon, I fi id tiie following statement: "The resolution defining the qualifications of voters was taken up; when , - "Mr. Hovey moved to amend, by inserting a proviso, that aliens shall not vote until after one year's residence in tho State; which was adopted." I did not make lite amendment above alkdcd to, and yoa will confer a favor by making 'ho correction. Yours, &.C., ALVIN P. HOVEY.1' Fatal Arm ay among Nf.oroe. A number of n'.grocs, in the Sixth Ward of New York, on the 14tl in-t., got into an argument about the merits of the Fugitive Slave Law, when a general fight ensued , and two colored men and one colored woman were killed Their names were John Murray, Francis Pappit and his wife. The roan who committed' tho act w as a native of the Sandwich Islauds- his weapon was a bedqiost. Cin. Gazette. - . . Poetry. The music of Thought conveyed to us in the mn-ie of Language,

DEBATES IW THE ' ' COXSTITlTTIOXAb CONVENTION.

REPORTED BY HARVEY FOWLER, ESQ. Monday, October 14, 1S50. The PRESIDENT announced the first business in order, to be the consideration of the report of tho select committee, appointed under the resolution of Mr. Milroy, to enquire into the legality of tho claim of the State Printer to do the printing -of tins Convention. The Secretary then read the report of the select committee, as follows; " The undersigned, members of th committee appointed under the following resolution, viz ' Resolcedy That there be a committee of seven appointed, w hose duty it shall be to enquire into and report to this Convention, upon the legality of the claim of the present State Printer to do the printing for this Convention,' i-c. - . Beg leave to report thnt they have had tho matter referri'd to them, under their consideration, and arc unanimously of opinion that the -State Printer is not ex officio the printer to this Convention, and has no legal claim by virtue of his office, to tlo-the printing for this Convention. R. tl. MILROY, H. P. THORNTON, J0IIX P. DUNN. HORACE P. BIDDLE, EZEKIEL D. LOGAN, JAMES LOCKHART. Committee." Mr. NAYE rose and said, he would ask the indulgence of the Convention while he submitted a few re marks in reference to this report. The question involv cd here was purely a legal question a question that must be determined, if properly determined, w ith reference to the legal right of the individual who claimed to be printer to the Convention by virtue of his appointment as State Printer, by the authority of the State Legislature. But looking at the question in a legal point of view it became necessary to settle the question irrespective of the applicants before the Convention, not looking to the interest cither of the incumbent of the office of State Printer, or of any applicant for his place. It became necessary to trace the history of the election of the State Printer, (Mr. J. P. Chapman; ) and the law under which the Legislature proceeded in his election. It seemed, from the state of facts presented, that Mr. Chapman was elected State Printer in the month of January, 150, for a term of three years. Mr. N. here proceeded to read from tbe Revised Statutes as follows; "There shall be elected tri-cnnially, counting from the month of January, one thousand eight hundred and forty-one, by the General Assembly, on joint ballot, a State Printer, who shall serve for three years, from and after tho first day of AiTgust next, after his election ; and such printer shall, within twenty days after his said election, enter into bond with sufficient surety to the satisfaction of the Secretary and Treasurer of State, and Auditor of Public Accounts, with conditions for the prompt, accurate, and workmanlike execution of the public printing, and the faithful performance of all the duties required by law." It seemed that Mr. J. P. Chapman had been elected under this statute. It was enjoined upon him by law to give a bond for tke faithful discharge of the ditties of his office. It seemed that ho had done this, and had informed the Convention that he was ready to do the printing for the State. The question then w as this: was Mr. Chapman an officer of the State, or a mere contractor? If he were an officer, the Convention could have no control over him in that capacity; but if he were a contractor, they could not annul a contract between him and the State of Indiana. To determine this question he would look into the decision of the court upon the subject, from which it was clear that the printer was a contractor with the Slate and not nn olfieer. He was, therefore, beyond the reach of the Convention. According to the definition of the courts, the Public Printer was to do all the printing that was to he executed on account, of the State of Indiana, and such printing was to be paid for out ot the public money. ( Here Mr. N. agnin read from sections G3 and C5 Revised Statotes, 1S43. as follows: " The prices to be paid such Public Printer arc Jiereby cstab.ished, as lollows: lor composition, per thou sand ems. plain matter, forty-five cents; figure work, per thousand ems, sixty-five cents ; rule and figure work, per thousand ems, eighty cents; press work, per token, common forms, forty-five cents; broad sides, per token, sixty cents; lobling reports and bills, per thousand co. pies, on each signature, (distinct tables to e considered ns signatures.) twelve and a half cents; stitching reports ami lulls, per hundred, twenty cents. "The Secretary of State" shall superintend nil the printing done for the State, and see that the same is W9Ü executed, and shall measure and estimate the same, and certify under his hand and the seal of his office, the amount and kind of work done, together with tho cost; which ecrtiiicate shall authorize the Auditor of Public Accounts to audit the same, and the Treasurer shall pay the amount out of any moneys of tho State in his liamts not otherwise appropriated. J It was plain that the Public Printer was not an officer of the Convention. Nor was tt necessary for the organ ization of the Convention that they should have a printer. Why? Beenr.se. in the Convention of 131G, for the formation of the Constitution which this Convention was assembled to alte- and amend, thero was no printer appointed; neither was there appointed a printer to the California Constitutional Convention. Moreover, it was plain that the Convention wns to le governed by the laws which brought the body -into existence. They could not go beyond the tiowers therein prescribed. As far as power was conferred upon the Convention, thev were limited to the powers conferred bv law. But with respect to the power of proposition to amend the existing Constitution, thev were without limitation. As far as everything else was concerned, with respect to or ganizaiion und the appropriation of money, the Convcn don had no power beyond what was conferred by the act bringing the body into existence. Further, tho debates of the Convention were to be recorded by in officer of the Legislature, appointed by the Governor and by him commissioned. Therefore, he was not accountable to the Convention, and they had no right to direct the publication of the debates, as prcpar cd by the Stenographer. The Legislature placed it in the power of the Governor to appoint some suitable person for the purpose of reporting the debates of the Convention, and the Statute went on to prescribe further ui this matter, that the Constitution when amended, was to be deposited, with all the proceedings, in tho offieo of Secretary r. State; and tho Legislature, at some stilse. quent time, would have ti e power to control the publi cation thereof. f He referred to sections 14 and 15 of the act of last winter, from which he read as follows: "Sec 14. The roll containing the draught of the amended Constitution adopted by said Convention, and the proceedings of said Convention, shall be deposited by tiie President and Secretary thereof, in tho office of fcecrctary ol .state, wlio shall hie tue same, and cause said Constitution to be entered of record in his office; and said Convention may submit one or more of the amendments which they may propose to tue Constitu tion, as distinct propositions, to be voted upon by the people separately or together, as to them may seem expedient. "Sec. 15. It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State, so soon as tho same is recorded inhisolhce, to deliver to tho Governor of this State, a certified copy of said amended Constitution, who shall, on the meeting of the General Assembly ol this otate. at its next session, lay the same before them; and it shall be the duty of the said General Assembly to pass all laws necessary and proper for submitting the samo to the qualified voters lor their approval or rejection ; also for organizing the government under tho amended Constitution, in case it should be adopted and ratified by such voters." It w as plain then, that as far as the proceedings of the Convention were concerned, the Legislature had reserv ed by law, the entire control of this whole matter, after passing from the hands of the Convention. , AH of the debates of the Convention were thus to be deposited; and iK'ing thus deposited, it seemed to him that the Convention had no right to order tho printing cf the Croceedings ly any other than tho officer which' had een provided I y the State., . He wonld now pass to another branch of tho question the expediency of taking this course. A similar question to the one now lcfore the Convention, had been ' adjudicated noon 'by the Supreme Court, in the case of Obora 4' fcrtmUrfain against the State. In thi case it, was held that State Printers were contractors with the State, and if the Legislature take the State Printing out of the hands of the legal contractors, and place it in the hands o a third person, tbe con

tractors can recover in damages to tho amount of the price of printing so taken away from them. The

measure of the damages was the value of the printing. This question had been settled. If, then, tho Convcn' tion had determined that they would elect another print er to do tho printing of the body, they might mark his words, that no sooner than this thing should be done, Mr. Chapman could, by authority given to bim, institute a suit against tho Stato of Indiana, and recover to the last cent the price of. all the printing of the Convention. There was no question upon this point. It seemed to him, with deference to the opinion of the commit tec, thit this matter could not have been investi gated by them. For it was as clear to him as the noon day, that if another printer should be appointed by the Convention, it would involve tho State in a double payment of the bill for printing for the Convention. And here he would again call attention to page 170 of the llevtscd Statutes of I34J, from which he bad already read. 1 . Again, almostv all of tho printing of the Convention would have to be done after the adjournment, so' that it would be out of the power of the President to measure the work, and satisfactorily audit the account of the printer whom the Convention might appoint. It was for this reason that tho Legislature reserved the ri-jht to do this work by the hand of the Stato Printer. He re ferred to the fact that "the Convention of New York, w hich met in 1S46, elected a printer under a law of the State passed in IS45. The law calling that Convention together, expressly provided for tho election of a printer. The printing of the Kentucky Convention was also provided for by Statute j and the Ohio Convention, also, adopted the State Printer as printer to that body. In fact, from all the examinations of precedents, which he had been able to make, he had not found a single instance to support the report of tho committee. He confessed that his researches had been limited very limited but he had not found a single instance. Ho desired 'to be understood as entertaining no personal preferences whatever, cither for the State Printer or any other ind vidual desirous of being elected printer; but he did not wish to see the people ol Indiana taxed double tor-work which the Legislature had already appointed an agent to do. Ho had submitted these few remarks, because he was satisfied that, if this printing were done by any other printer than Mr. J. P. Chapman, they would le paying twice for the same work, out of the Treasury. He would now turn to another matter. He 'found in the proceedings of the General Assembly of 1S43, a law which was passed after the settlement of the matter lctween Oshorntf Chamberlain and the State, which was enacted in order to place the subject of public, printing beyond all cavil thereafter. And since that time it had been required of the printer to execute a bond for the laithiul discharge of lns duty, within a given tune. Thus tnrcfuily had the Legislature reserved to themselves the power to do all the public printing by this agent; describing particularly, when, and where, and how, the work should be done, and out of what fund the agent should bo paid. But now the Convention could not vote the appropriation of one cent of money toward the payment of any ' mnr for this service. Then howwas the printer to be paid? He was to be paid by the Legislature. But, he would ask again, upon what prin ciple, and how he could receive his pay? He maintained tie conbl not get Irs pnv at all. He had sniiinit'ed these lew remarks, under a sense of duty which be owed to the people whom he represented, and to the State at large; and. as a reason for the vote which be. should give upon the final action ol the lody upon this question. He should be careful in this matter, to avoid that course by which the Treasury might be doubly urawn upon lor the same service. Mr. BIDDLE said, that having participated in the action of this committee, he was unwilling that the vote should be taken without some? expression of the views which governed them. He had hoped that some member of the committee better able than himself to answer the gentleman from Hendricks, (Mr. Nave) would have done so. But. as it seemed the question was about to be taken, he could not If t it pass, without a word. He was not prepared to answer the gentleman in the shape in which his authorities were put; nor did he think they bore at all upon the question. Although the gentleman set out by defining the question and examining into- its legal bearings, it seemed to him that his remarks were not wholly confined to that point. Although the authority which the gentleman tjuoted, might be gol and binding ijon the Legislalnre, he denied that if was binding upon tl'is Convention: nor was he prepared to adduce any authority. The gentleman, himself, had declared that lie cotil.l hml none to suit, i he reason was, that a Convention like this was not a thing of frcqnent occurrencc Conventions were seldom called, and when they were convened th y were so much alve every other authority in the State, that he hardly knew where to find authority which could bind them. He should deny also, that any precedent, taken from the Convention i.T another State, v-as good authority and binding upon the people of the State of Indiana. "Not that he would speak disrespectfully of other States of this Union; i:ut, ns authouity he would deny, in positive terms, that their action could be binding here. And, of course, it could not have a particle of weight upon a question purely of a legal character. In the committee he had voted for the report which was made to this body. And he still thought he was right in so voting; although the subject had not received from him very mature deliberation. He was convinced of the correctness of the report by a few general reasons which struck him so forcibly, that he had contented himself without looking particularly into the legal authorities. In this inquiry it became a material point to ascertain what was the meaning of the term "the State." It had many qualifications ;' there was the Geographical state, the" Topographical state, the Physical state, the Political stato, Sec. He apprehended that it was the political state that had nride the contract, if any was made with Mr, Chapman, and to that the State Printer must look. But he denied that this Convention constituted any part of the political state. It was a very different question whether one Legislature could take away their printing from an agent employed by a preceding Legislature, from the question whether this Convention could do it. It was a very different question to a'dedge that Mr. Chapman was bound to execute the printing of a le"islative body, and, that he was printerto this Convention. It was a very different proposition, that tho Legislature was compelled to give their printing to Mr. Chapman, and that this Convention was compelled to do so. By virtue of law, the political functions of the State of Indiana were mertdy Legislative, Executive, and Judicial. The State spoke by the Legislature: she had no other voice. " Her judgment was pronounced by the Judiciary, and every other department were bound bv that; and" the hand of tho State was tho Executive. But where is there to be found in cither or all of these departments authority to call a Convention? Did we not understand from this fact, then, that the Convention rose above all authority in the State? He di not wish to be understood as affirming that tho Conveuiion were without the restraint of any authority; but he affirmed that they were lound by the authority of no human compact, except the Constitution of the United States, which they had all sworn to support. He denied thnt the Stato could make a single letter or line, that could bind the action of this Convention. Neither were the officers or tho police of tho Convention any part of the political state. They found no plac in the old political state This Convention was the conception, the beginning of a new Constitution, or government, if you please, and in that character it necessarily rose superior to all the now. er of human compact, except that which its members were sworn to support. . As between Legislature and Legislature, the argument of the gentleman from Hendricks, 'Mr. Nave,) was probably true; but, as between the Legislature and this Convention, it had no application whatever. One word more. The gentleman had stated that this State Printing was involved in a contract. That might lie the case. It was not necessary to this discussion to affirm or deny that. He should probably incline to a different opinion, but he did not care, here, whether it were consuiured as a contract or not. une tiling was certnin, that the Convention Printing, was not a matter of contract between the Convention and Mr. Chapman. Mr. Chapman was elected under a law enacted before this Convention wits authorized, or even in contemplation. How, then was it possible that they could be bmud to accept of a Printer elected or appointed, when the Convention had no legal existence ? He co". lid not disturb any existing contract. Let the question be decided between Legislature and Lgislature. One thing heknfw the Convention never made the contract lorhe Slate Printing, and therefore, they could not break it. - ' , He denied that the Legislature could elect a Printer, and bind the Convention to receive him , for if the Legislature could elect their Printer, ther might als elect their President and Secretary. lie denied that, there was any

power on earth . that could fasten a single officer upon 1 this Convention, or bind the mind of one member of this body. For if this could be done, it would Iks idle to" talk of their power to re-organize the Constitution, and re model the organic law! Such a doctrine would trammel at once, and most elTeettuJly set at naught the primary rights of the people in their representative character, and also, in their character as citizens, o meet together and mould the government ae-cordiDg to their wish' es. Whenever gentlemen could show that the Legistnre had power to elect a Doorkeeper or Secretary, for this Convention, and compel the body to take them, then be would le willing to believe that the State Printer was Printer to the Convention. The gentleman had cited the case of the appointment of the Stenographer; but he denied in positive terms that the Governor, however much he respected his person and his office, and the wisdom of the act of the Legislature authorizing this appointment, could appoint a Stenographer whom they could le compelled to accepts It was the whole purpose of the act of the Legislature to convene and organize this body. Further than that it could not go. He denied the power of tho Legislature to go further than that; for, if they could advance but one step farther, it would be to subvert the primary right of the people. The moment the Convention came here, as a body, they were endowed with power to do every thing necessary (in the language of the act) to their complete organization, and hence if they wanted a Printer t Ik y could elect him. Mr'PETTIT,. interposing and Mr. B. giving way, said, l.e understood the gentleman from Cass to say, that this body possessed sovereign power; ho desired then, to ask him, whether they could appropriate money? or whether they could increase or diminish their own

Mr. BIDDLL said that was not now the question before the Convention. - Mr. PETTIT Tin his scat.l It is embraced in the idea of sovereignty. Mr. BIDDLE said, it would be time enough to debate that question when it should come properly before the iKHly. lie denied that there was any power on earth that could fasten upon this body any of iis officers. He did not say that he would vote against Mr. Chapman for Printer he would as readily Yote lor Mr. Chapman as for any other mnn, but with reference to the legal ques tion, he repeated that no power on earth could fasten upon upon litis uouv any oi us oiuecrs.- iue moment the Convention ha met, that moment they possessed the inherent power to do all reasonable things to effect the end for which they were called together. Even the old constitution imposed no obligation here. The summoning of this" Convention was a primary act of the people, designed to change and remould the elementary powers of government; and this was a hotly which could recognize no human authority except what was within these walls and belonged to the members thereof and the Constitution of the United States. He looked upon the appointment of the Stenographer as a wise provision of law, and he doubted not that the Governor had exercised a sound disc retion ia the appointment ; but, he denied the power to fasten a Stenographer upon this body, if the) did not choose to accept of such an oliicer. i Why,' as he recollected, the very first thing after the or Conization they went to debating the question, whether they would accept of the services of a Stenographer The same law of the Legislature provided that the Convention should sit in this Hall, and there was now pending a question whether this body should uot remove to some other place. He hoped these remarks would not be taken as subversive of law. It w-as purely a law question which was referred to the committee, und. as far os his judgment extended, it was decided judicially not that Mr. Chapman was not a good Printer, but that he was not Printer to the Convention. The gentleman's argument was more in reference to the right, than to the expediency of having such an olfieer; although he went on to show that the Convention of 1316 had no Printer. lie (Mr. B.) Was not arguing whether the Convention ought to have a Printer, or whether they ought not. The simple question was, whether there was a Printer already appointed that the body was bound to receive as their Printer. But it did not seem to be hard to answer the gentle, man's notion of a contract, in this place. The Supreme Court of this State had decided that an office, consider cd merely as an office, was not a contract. But the Court-did not understand that an office might not involve a contract. Mr. Chapman had given a bond to the State, and what was in that loiul? Why, he simply undertook to do the pi inting for the State. His bond was analogous to the Treasurer or Auditor's bond, and it could not be contended for a moment that these latter offices involved cither the essence or the terms of a contract. When they come down to the question whether Mr. Chapman was the printer, he agreed with tho report of the committee. But whether Mr. Chapmau ought to be the printer was another question. It seemed to him that he ought. But, ho was arguing nothing but the legal principle j and, in doing so, he had looked only at a few broad principles; and he had seen that if the Convention should allow the State to interfere in one thing, they must necessarily have the right to iutcrfere in other matters, which would be absurd. He had seen that they must contend for the right to protect themselves. The right to elect their own officers was as inherent in that body, as the right to the air he breathed was to his natural body, or ns it was the right of nnv man to cmploy his good right arm to defend himself. The Convention might have as many officers ns they pleased ; they might elect them as they pleased, and for any purpose; and if the Legislature should undertake to give them one officer, they might give them another. The moment this right was conceded, there was a violation of the very first principle of self-government. He did not expect there would be much difference of opinion with respect to the legal question: but when he came to the election, that was quite another question; while ho remained in the performance of his duty as a delegate, he would not consent by his vote, to shackle any right hieb he considered to b-j inherent in the Convention. If he were arguing the question as to the right of one Legislature to repeal what had lccn done by another Legislature, involving a matter of this kind, he should take quite a different course. He desired to notice another thing. Though he could not lay his hand upon the page, he had been referred to an expression of the opinion of the last Legislature upon this very subject; he did not cite this as nnthority; but he had been told that, after the election of Mr. Chapman last winter, there was a resolution introduced into the Legislature the substance of which was to confer upon Mr. Chapman the right to do the printing for this Convention, and that, upon the motion of some gentleman, it was laid upon the table. From this it would sopm that testimony could be taken from tbe floor of the Legislature itself, that they did not cven'pretend to fasten their officers upon this body. He made this citation with diffidence, and not at all as' a matter of authority; for there was not a particb of force in it, even if it were true. But aside from this, he would not yield to the Legislature the right, in any manner, to raise their authority above the primary act of the people; for that would be to restrict the popular power the primary right of the people to establish and maintain such, form of government as they may think proper. These were hisviews upon this question, hastily thrown out, and but iily digested; for ho had no time to put them into book shape. Mr. HOWE said he should trouble the Convention with but few remarks in reference to this question. He had been waiting to hear from some gentleman of the committee tho grounds upon which the committee had based their report. The gentleman from Cass had now stated those grounds. This would supercede the necessity of arguing anew the question arising from the construction of the act of last winter, authorizing the ca.Il of a Convention, as to the right of this Convention, under that act, to elect a printer. . As gentlemen Imd argued, a question might arise whether the printer was to lie regarded as an ollieer or a contractor. It was clear to his mind, that he ought to bo considered r contractor. That he possessed none of the elements of an officer, and was therefore only a contractor, and if a contractor the question was, what was the subject matter of his contract? How far did it extend? Why, clearly to nil the printing of the State. It was all required to be done by tho very nature of the bonds which he had given, ami those londs for the performalize of his duty, constituted a contract, which neither the Legislature nor that body oould supercede. These questions, however, were now considered im material on tbe ground upon which the gentlemen of the committee, had seen proper to place their report. In justice to tho gentleman from Cass, he was w illing to admit that his argument contained all that could b? said on thnt side of the question; but at tha samo timo he could not coincide w ith him in the proposition, that this Convention, cmbttdyinj the sovereignty or the state, was 1

not bound by the act of the Legislature, or any other public body in the Stute. With "all deference to the gentleman he must lie permitted to say, that the proiiosilioir was falacious and unsound. This Convention according !o his understanding of thrr matter did not represent the sovereignty of the State for there was a State Constitution already in existence tin der which this Convention was called. " The gentleman's proposition, continued Mr. Howe, can only apply if we go back to a chaotic state, a slate of political disorganU ' zation. When the people would have a right to assemble together cither by themselves, if their nuinlrs were not too great, or by "their delegates,' if they pleased, and form a Government to suit themselves. I tav if that were the state of tlings, there wruld be srn:c force in the gentleman's argument; but such is not the case, wo have already got a Constitution which is valid and binding upon ns, and must continue to be so until set csido iu the prepcrand legitimate manner. Now the gentleman ia this case is driven into a dilemma. He is either comjielled to admit that the Constitution is yet in c.vsN ence, or that it is not. If it be in existent e, ns a matter of course, all legal rights that have occurcd under it are valid and binding, and cannot be set aside; if it be not in existence, they run on without a government. But tl Constitution of the United States itself, width we Lave sVrn to support, would prohibit us fioin setting aside vested rights. We were sworn to support the Constitution of the United States, and nothing wns said about our own Constitution. Why? For the manifest reason that we hare come here to revise and amend it. I say then that the proposition is unfounded that w e represent the sovereignty of the State. As there is a Constitution already in existence, these rights that have been acquired under it are binding ujvni us. We arc the mere delegates of the people, assembled here, not to make an original Constitution, as though none were now in existence, for we have a government, a Com ti tut irn, tin 1 wo have a code of laws and public officers that bars been brought into existence under it. All these are valid and binding upon ns, and nil that we have to do is to alter or amend the organic law of the State. Wo have no more authority than a set of Commissi.airrs, whether consisting of 150 men or a dozen, or even a smaller nunih-r, having a specific duty to perform. St, at the time when it was considered necessary to revise the old code of laws, two gentlemen were appointed as commissioners for that purpose." What power had lhe3' ? They had power tow iiic out a new code and submit it to the Lt q-isjaf urc. So we are here for tho purpose of revising the Constitution and submitting that revised Constitution to the people. Wc have assembled here by virtue of an act of the Legislalnre. We hflve not asseruhled tinder the Constitutional provision, which requires that the Constitution shall Iks remodeled every 12 years; but under an act of the Legislature. W therefore acknowledge the authority cf the Legislature. We have no right to disavow its authority. We are morally and legally estopped from setting aside the act under which we are assembled, cither in whole or ia part. We must acknowledge its authority. We are then i.üm o Delegates under the authority of the Legislature assembled here for the pr.i pose of revising the Constitution.

which when revised is to be submitted to the jieojde, ari l if they a.- satisfied with it, rmr work will be aj. proved, otherwise it wiil have no validity. So far as the appropriation ef "money is concerned, wo have no power to ect. We have only the power to spend what has been appropriated for us. And in my judgment we have no right to go lcyond the amount which has been appropriated by the Legislature for c ur cse; and if we do go beyond the amount so apprr.prit.ted. wo shall he at the mercy of the next Legislature to make good the deficiency. Thus we are morally und legally estopped from denying the binding force of the act f'f the Legislature upon us. and this, I think, shows the fallacy of the gentleman's proposition. Mr. STEELE said, that having-had something to dtf with the report which was now before the Convention, he desired to sr.y a very few words in relation to it. He concurred entirely in ihe views of the gentleman I'rcin Cass. The sentiments which that gentleman bed announced to the Convention, had impressed themselves upon his mind from 'the first introduction into the Legislature of the law authorizing this Convention. During the canvass, said Mr. Steele, and before I professed myself a candidate for election, a large portion of the journals of my county represented to the jH-t.ple that I was ineligible to a seat in this Convention, fortl:erca son that I held the petty office cf Recorder. I called their attention to so much of tbe net of the Legislature as provides for the eligibility of any person w ho posscses the right of suffrage, the right to vote for a member of the Convention. They produced the old const it ution, which prohibits any rue from holding two lucrative cilices at one time. And in reply I n-sertcd that the hands of the Legislature were not tied l-v the old constituiion, the constitution had nothing to do with it. It had vested in the Legislature the power to pass a law to organ ize this. Convent ion by the election of Delegate. Such was my opinion, and I entertain that opinion at the present moment,- thai the law so far as it extends beyor.d ti e mere assembling of the Convention, is r.othing more vor less than surplusage. For instance, we sec clearly thst the powers delegated in the old constitutor. the ono adopted in IS 1G gave to the Legislature no other ril.t than to provide a law to organize the Convention. That is the whole extent of the authority which the Legislature possess.. The moment we become or ganized under the law, I hold w ith the gentleman from Cass, that we transcend every law except ihe Federal censtituti n That only is binding cjkmi us. We are here to cons;.!t the interests of the people, and it is one of e.ur chief tinties .to avoid a profuse expenditure of the public monev. It is our duty to practice the most rigid ecoiumy, rt only for the sake of tiie immediate interests of the ptple, but for the sake of the example that we shall thrs set. Sofar ns the selection of a Printer is concerned, I have no particular choice. I have the best of feeling towards the present State Printer, and I believ e he ought to lie selected, provided he w ill do the work ns w ell and at the same prices as other printers; and I am informed that he has procured the mntet ials and is prepared to du the woik, but I contend that if he docs do it he must be appointed by us, bis power must come from this body. But it is suggested to me that there are printers ia this place who will do the printing for 25 per cent. less thait the prices now paid to tl.e State Printer if so, I desire that the work shall be done bv them. Mr. Steele adJt?d that he should vote in favor of the report of the committee, and he should give that vote not from any feeling in regard to any printer, but from an honest conviction thnt the conclusion at which the committee had arrived, was the correct and proper conclusion. Mr. BASCOM said he did not rise to make a speech upon this question, but he could not resist the int lination he f It to say a few words, w hen he saw gentlemen who were foremost in debate upon almost cvciy unimportant question, as soon as a question came up upon which some talent might be displayed, sitting as luiim as the day thf were born. Laughter. The whole question, said Mr. B., resolves itself into this. The patronage of this Convention is to be given to a printer, and gentlemen hero who are aspiring to higher places, arc afraid tu show their hands. Renewed laughter Tho PRESIDENT. It is not in order to allude to the motives of srentlemcn. - Mr. BASCOM. I do not impugn the motives of ai y gentleman. - The PRESIDENT. Tho Chair would ask the gentleman to explain what he does mean? Mr. BASCOM. I mean sir, that there are genilemen here who giveus their views vary free'y in regard to unim portant matters such as the appointment of a Doorkeeper, but when a legal question of any importance ai is-s, we are not favored with their opinions. Wed sir, the whole question is precisely thi, who shall do li e printing for this Convention ? Now, when I am called upon to vtfl upon this question I wont to vote nndcrstaiidiulv. And I hope therefore, to be favored with the opinion of those who have some legal knowledge. I was glad to henr the gcntl?man from Cas, express his opinions. . He did so, learle.o'y, and in the main I agree wilb hi:.i. I do not think that wo are Imuud by any law in regard to tho npjKn'ntment of our officers, but if I am wrong oa this point 1 w isli to be U'tter informed by legal geuileincu before I am called upon to vote. Mr. PETTIT said, he had no d.dre to detain tie' Convention with any remarks, but if the gentleman over the way had ni J allusion to him in the remark that he hid made, he bad a word to say in rep''. Sir, said Mr. P., I am Very far from holding" that this" Convention possesses entire sovereignly.' Wc sit here w ith limited powers. We were called together for a specific purpose, and I maintain that the only point in which we have unlimited power, is that of making propositions. We have unlimited power to propose to the people of Indiana a (oun iX government, an organic law; width, if adapted by the peoole, shall be the basis of their future governments that is all tho power we hive. How would it operate if we conceived ourselves occupying o diiTercnt position? If we can elect our Printer then he tuu-f be an officer

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