Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 6 August 1937 — Page 6

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THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES

FRIDAY, AUG. 6, 1937 '

MR. SPENCER—

Verbatim Testimony of Joel A. Baker at Trial

We understand each other, don’t we? MR. KARRER— You are talking about the first time he went to the State House.

QUESTIONS BY MR. KARRER—

Q—Now, state your name to the court, please? A—Joel A. Baker. Q—Where do you live? A-—211 Beverly Drive. Q—Are you married? A—Yes, sir. Q—Do you have any children? A—-Little girl 12 years old. Q—How long have you lived in Marion County? A—AIll my life, Q—Born here? A—Yes, sir. Q—Where did you go to school? A—I went to No. 46, grade school. Q—You went—is that here in West Indianapolis? A—Yes, sir. Q—What other schools attend? A—Manual Training High School. Q@—Graduate from Manual Training? A-—Yes, sir. Q—Did you attend any colleges? A—Yes, sir. Q—What University. Q-—Now, what job was the first job you had after you got out of Indiana University? A—First job I had out of Indiana University was Homer McKee Advertising Co. Q—How long did you work for them? A—I think about 18 months, Q—Did you leave their employ? A—Y:s, sir. Q—Where did you go to work? = A—Nordyke & Marmon. Q@—What did you do out at Nordvke & Marmon? A—I was assistant office manager in the chassis division of production. Q—How long did you Nordyke & Marmon? four years, I think.

college? A—Indiana

work for

ploy? A—Yes, sir. : Q—And where did you go, if you | went anywhere, to work? A—I was | elected Secretary of the Democratic | Central Committee. ; Q—That was in Indianapolis? | A—Yes, sir.

did you |

A—About | | of

Q—Now, did you leave their oe

the question. (Reporter read the question) A—No, sir. Q—Now, I will ask you if at any time you ever took Pete Cancilla up to Wayne Coy and introduced him and at the time said “That is my man,” and patted Peter Cancilla on the arm? Did that occur? A—I did not, Q—I will ask you if at any time Wayne Coy was struck by Peter Cancilla had he done it under your direction or did you coerce or ask him to? A—No, sir. Q—Did you ever say anything to him about striking Wayne Coy? A—No, sir, Q—When did you first learn, if vou did learn, that Peter Cancilla had had a fight with Wayne Coy? A—To the best of my recollection, I was told that by a newspaper man. Q—Well, where were you at the time? A—I was outside the Speaker's room, which is the back cioak-

{ room of the House of Representa-

tives. Q—That you go in to see the Speaker? Yes, sir. Q—Who was the Speaker at that time? A—Edward Stein. Q—Had the House adjourned at the time you got that information that Cancilla had had a fight with Coy? A—It had not. Q—Was that information imparted to you before you saw Beggs in the House here? A—I saw Beggs several times that day. I don’t know how many times he talked to me. I don’t know, Q—Did you say this, or this in substance, to Beggs in the House Representatives, “I hope he hasn't hit the - = - he might have killed him.” Did you say that? A—I did not. Q—Did you talk to him any time on that day, about anything in substance about Cancilla striking Coy? A--I did not. Q—And now, you were after this affair—or after this, where did you

is the Speaker—where Sy

Q—How long did you serve IMiggo ys this your wife sitting here?

that position? than a year. Q—Did you then secure another | position? deputy clerk of the Supreme and | Appellate Courts.

Q—Haw long did you have that | the morning?

position? A—Four years. Q—Who were you under during that time? A—Zachariah Dungan. |

| before? A—Yes, sir,

A—That was 1ess| a__yes sir.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

A—I was appointed chief | PROSECUTOR SPENCER—

Q—Now, on March 1, 1937, were

| you at home in the early part of

A—Yes, sir. Q—Did you stay home the night came down

Q—And then ‘you

Q—Did you hold any position at town from home? A—Yes, sir.

the same time vou held the posi- | tion as chief deputy clerk of the | Indiana Courts? year, I think it was the last year, | I was elected Secretary and Treasurere of the Indiana State Bar As-| sociation. { Q—How long did you remain as | Secretary and Treasurer of the In-| diana State Bar Association? A—| Five years. | Q—Then did you hold any | other official position during the | time that you were Secretary and Treasurer of the Indiana State Bar Association? A-—Yes, sir. O—What official position? A— | City purchasing agent. Q—How long were purchasing agent? A—About two | years and a half. | |

| |

vou city

Q—Under whose administration was that? A—L. Ert Slack. Q—And then did you hold any other position after that? A—I was probation officer, investigator in this court, Q—How long—did you under Judge Baker here? Yes, sir. Q—Here in the Criminal Court? A—Yes, sir, Q—How long were you probation | officer in the Criminal Court? A—| Five years. A little over five years; | five vears and three or four months. |

| serve | A— |

Q—At the time you left here, did | © clock.

vou go and take another position?

{ house? Supreme - and Appellate | ho tion. Mr, Spencer, some time A—I think in the last potween 8 and 9 o'clock.

| for

| A—I was there until | between 11 and 12 o'clock.

| To

| time.

Q—What time did you leave your A—To the best of my rec-

Q—Where did you first go? A— To my office.

Q—That was over here on

| together, and talked? | drank that; | Mr—— I am not sure about Mr.

(is the east entrance,

| Market St. in the old Wild Bank |

| fice? A—Yes, sir.

Q—How long did you stay there? | some time |

Q—Where did you go then? A=] the State House. Q—Did you see Peter Cancilla at any time? A-—Yes, sir. Q—Where was it you first saw | him? A—I am not sure whether he came in the office that morn- | ing to see about a little girl that we had out at the Guardian's | Home Q—When was it you first saw him? A—I am not sure, it was that morning, for his father-in-law— Q—Some time that morning you saw him, is that right? A— | Yes, sir. | Q—Give us the | A—Between |

approximate | 11. anq 12

Q—Did you see him inside or | outside the office? A—I am not |

Q—Into the lobby? A—In through the lobby and into the tap room. : Q—Did you sit at a table or stand at the bar? A—At the bar. Q—What did you do after you got in there? A—Had two drinks. Q—What did you drink that day? A—Seagram’s VO, and White Rock water. Q—You drank that, both of you A—T know I I don't know about

Cancilla. Q—He was a pretty good friend of yours, wasn't he? A—Yes, sir. Q—How long had you known him? A—Since 1930. Q—And when did you first get acquainted with him? A-—He came to the Indiana Democratic Club. Q—And you were an officer of the Club, I believe, a director of the Indiana Democratic Club? A—1 Yes, Sir. Q—Hold any other official position up there? A—Why, I was President a couple of years. Q—I mean at that time? I don't think so. Q—You were house manager at that time? A-No, sir. Q—You have been, haven't you? A—No, sir. Q—Ycu continued to talk there that day, and had the two drinks, did you leave together? A—Yes, sir. Q—Did you have any conversation with any one at that time? A—No, sir. Q—Was Dewey Myers with you at that time? A—No, sir. Q—Well, where did you go? A— Went to the State House. Q—What entrance did you leave from? A-—Capitol Avenue. Q—Went out the Capital Ave, | door of the Taproom? A—Yes, sir. | Q—Which entrance of the State House did you walk into? A-—That

A—No,

Q—By the statue of Governor Morton, passed by that? Is that the way you went in? Did you climb up the steps there and go into the State House? A—Whose | statue that is I don’t know.

MR. KARRER— Objection. MR. SPENCER— Q—Did you go up and enter what is known as the second floor or enter at the basement? A-—I think it was the second floor by the elevator numbers. Q—Whom did you see there, as you entered, if anyone? A—I met several people there, that I would speak to. I think one of the first persons I saw as I went in was Judge Frank P. Baker. Q—You know a good many people in Indianapolis? A—Yes, sir. Q—Your associations have been such that you have become acquainted with a number of people? A . Q—And you know a good many people out over the state in your contacts A—Yes, sir. --And you have been associated with many legislators over a period of years, haven't you? A--A good many, yes, sir. Q—In fact, you have been interested in other legislation than the particular bill or bills that you went over that day? A—Yes, I remember one that you had me work on. Q—And from time to time you have been interested in various sessions of the Legislature, and that way you got acquainted with a good many people? A—My friends would ask me and | Q—You saw Frank Baker? A— | Yes, sir. Q—Then where did you go? Did | you take the elevator or walk? A—| Yes, took the elevator, as I remem- | ber. Q—You and Cancilla, or did the! judge go upstairs with you? A—| No, he was coming out as we went | in, just stopped and spoke to him. |

) elevator up and got off at the third

floor? A—Yes, sir. Q—Whom did you see when you got upstairs? A—Well, I saw a good many people, Q—Well, now, can you give us the names of any of them? A—Yes. Q—Well, name some. A—I saw Hubbard—What is the colored gentleman's name that is the head of the janitors over there? I went around there immediately to hang my coat up. Henry Fleming. As I got off the elevator. Q—You saw Henry Fleming? A— Yes, sir. Q—Where did you go to hang up your coat? A—One of the colored boys took my coat. Q--That was your overcoat? A— Yes, sir. Q—It was March first? Q—Did you see there at that time? A—Well, there were several, there were those colored boys around there, and I saw Paul Denton, Senator Watson—, Q—Former U,

cold weather on A—Yes, sir.

anyone else

S. Senator or State Senator? A—State Senator from Fort Wayne. I saw him almost immediately after I got off the elevator, and went to the lunch stand. Several spoke to me, to call their names, I could not do that, Q—Did you see Martin Downey from Lake County? A—No.

Q—Then where did you go after

vou left the elevator and went into

the cloak room and checked your |

coat, where did you go? A—I walked into the House Chamber. Q—Did you have any conversation with anyone in there at that time? A—No, sir. Q—You were going to see Speaker Stein? A—At that time I wanted to see whether the session was still on, Q—Then how long did you stay in the House Chamber? A—Not to exceed five minutes. Q—Did you see Art Rose there then? A-—I don't recall that I did. Q—Had you seen Charley Marshall there at that time? You know Charley Marshall? A—Yes, SIT, Q—Then you went in, of course, the door, that leads into the House from the cloak room, did you not? A—Yes, sir. Q—Where did you go House? A—In the back. Q—Stepped in and came out the same door? A-—Yes, sir. I stood in there about five minutes. Q—Where did you go then? A— I came back out into the corridor. Q—Then where did you go? A—I walked up towards the other cloak room, the entrance to the Speaker's Chamber. Q—Did you see anyone in there? A—Yes, I saw———. Q—Did you talk to anyone? A— Yes, sir. Q—Whom did you talk to then? A—I talked to Sheriff Ray. Q—In the Speaker's Office? A— No, outside, in the corridor. I didn't go into the Speaker’s office. Q-—There is a stenographer’s room, wasn’t there, that was closer to the corridor? A—I went into the stenographer’s office, and I didn’t go into the Speaker's office. Q—You saw Sheriff Ray in the corridor or in the office? A—In the corridor.

in the

Q—Whom else did you see there? |

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stenographer’s | |

A—How long I was in that corridor? About 45 minutes. Q—Then you went into the House Chamber, and did you stay (in the House Chamber then? | No. Q—How long did you stay? A— | Why, I would say two or three | minutes, perhaps five. | Q—Then walked out?

A—That was where I saw Paul Denton, maybe three or four others whom I don’t remember, Q—Did you see Martin Downey there at that time? A—No, sir, Q—He is the Representative from Lake County, you know him? A— Yes, sir. Q—And then you came out of the | gj, stenographer’s office? A—No, I| Q_Which door did you come out | wasn’t in there. of? A—It is the west door, mid- | Q—Just stuck your head in, you dle west door. didn’t go into the stenographer’s—?| Q—Middle door there? A—Yes, | A—Not in the back of the cloak | sir. | room. If you recall, there are two Q—Then what did you do? cloak rooms there, that is the south | I walked up towards the one and the north one, I was not | counter, | in the south one. I was waiting Q—Well, did you see anyone at | there to see the Speaker and did | the lunch counter? A—Yes, sir. not go in there, Q—Whom did you see there Q—How long did you stay there | that day? A—As I recall, Judge then? A—I was in that corridor| MYers, Pete Cancilla, several othprobably 45 minutes. ers standing around.

. . Q—You are positive you saw Q—Was Cancilla with you all that » - time? A—No, sir. Judge Myers at the lunch coun

ter? A—There in the corridor, I Q—Was anyone with you? believe. No. Q—Did you Q@—You were all by yourself? A— | ney there at that time? I saw several people I knew that |

sir, would pass and stop and talk, No Q—Know anyone else that you one was with me, no.

saw there that day, at that time? Q—Those people you knew, and| A—Well, I know almost everybody stopped and talked to you were

that was in there. Paul Denton and Otto Ray? A— Q—Well, can you give us a few Might have been others.

names. People you saw on this Q—Might have been others that| occasion, by the lunch counter? you know? A—Yes, sir.

A—Nobody definite, no. Q—Did you see Wayne Coy there Q—Well, the picture isn’t quite at that time? A—No, sir.

| vivid now. of that particular time? Q—Did you see him in the Speak-| Then what did you do?

Did you er's office? A—I was not in the! have a conversation with anyone Speaker's office.

| there? A—Yes. Q—Well, you looked in there, | didn't you? A-—No, sir.

A—Yes, |

As | lunch

B= see Martin Dow-A-—No,

| conversation?

Q—Where did you go? A—I was | Judge Myers, and Pete Cancilla, and in that corridor outside. |I don’t know, to my best recollec-

Q—How long did you stay out | tion, there was someone else there,

there? A—I would say 45 or 50 Put I can’t remember who that was.

minutes; something like that.

ber, " Q—Well, whom did you see in| delegate fight.

there? a 4 | Q—What did you say? A-—I said, va hy Well; the members of “Well, they don’t hold that against

Q—And did you recognize or talk Jou Jo they BOWy i fenamitg you 9 es : or Judge?” by hyone Dn 7 li at that Q—Then what did he say? A—I : That Rid © _| don’t recall whether it was he or Q-—Then what did you do? How | myself or Pete said, “Let's walk! Fresh

long did you stay? A—I would say— te a stay where? EGGS Ac HOOSIER

Q—In the House Chamber the second trip in? A—I was in two Poultry Co. 107 N. Ala, LI. 1881

or three times. Across From Market

MR. KARRER— You mean the the State House. MR. SPENCER— This was your first trip to the State House? MR. KARRER— This is the——

second trip into |

across the street and have a drink.”

—sTa

Q—With whom did you have a | A—We had it with

Q—Well, what was the conversa- | Q—And where did you go after tion you had with Judge Myers that | the expiration of 45 or 50 minutes? | 42Y? A-—I think he said something

A—I went back in the House Cham- | 10 me about, well, we didn’t get | | Greenlee over, something about the |

Q-—The same one you entered? A=Yes, sir, Q—And walked across Capitol Ave.? A-Yes, sir, Q=—Which door of the Harrison did you go into at that time if you went into the Harrison? Aw

Q—Well, getting a drink was suggested, and the three of you Walked across the street? A-—Yes, sir. Q—Did you walk downstairs or take the elevator? AI think we went on the elevator. Q—Which door did you go out? A—The east door.

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Q—What time of day was that? | A—Between 11 and 12 o'clock. Q—Then I suppose you took the

A—Yes, sir, d Q—What position was that? A— | Sure he was in the office that morn- | Director of the Marion County | ing. I would rather think he was.

Welfare Department.

Q—And where did you first start | Q—And did you talk to Judge to walk over to the State House |. Baker about resigning here, just| With him? A—On Market St. sl pi after that? Not what you said— | , Sc That was between 11 and 127) TaVEL'S ALWAYS FOR VALUES! Did you? A—Yes, sir. A—Yes, sir. | : Q—That is before vou took the | Q—Did you have any conversa. | position with the Welfare Depart- | {ion about his going to the State | ment? A— Ves. sir. | House with you? A—He, as I recall Q—Now, Mr. Baker, never been arrested or of anything, have vou? Q—In your whole life? sir. Q—Now, calling your attention to March 1st, 1937, I will ask you whether or not you at any was? A-No time directed Peter Cancilla to | "oo HNO. go over and hit Wayne Coy? A— | S704 he 8 S00, Bay haa 1 did not. REL {asked him? A-—Yes, I think he did. Q—I. will ask you upon the | Q—Said Otto Ray asked him? A— oy d : ie | Yes; Sir first da fM h s / X or this in sabstineh to Pork hea a ee on Na Cancilla in the presence of Dewey ket Bt ? presents Ayes ou drare Myers, “Go get that yr? Just | ; answer if $7 said that, vy ANd hen you S1opped in lhe Sir idl + A7N0 | Harrison Hotel, didn't you? A— Q—1 will ask you whether or Ye Wieis did you go in the not, in reply to that, if Peter | Harrison Hotel? A—Into the tapC ancilla said, “W ell, wait a room. couple Wau: [0 uk 16 ie tha a entrance did you go : a ’ Sub- | in? A—IX think from the Mark stance said? A—Now, just read St. MARRY

vou convicted | A—No, sir. | A—No,

{ have | 1t— | Q—Just yes or no. A—Yes. Q—What was that conversation? | A—That some policeman had asked | him to do what they could on the | | police bill. { | Q—Some policeman? Did he say | anything about what policeman it |

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