Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 13 March 1937 — Page 4

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THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES

SATURDAY, MARCH 18, 1987 |

Complete Verbatim Testimony of Joel Baker at Legislative Hearing

| went there to get a public hearing? A—I wanted a public hearing. the Harrison Hotel and had two Q-—Did you-——, A—And a copy of drinks, the amendments of the bill with Q--Where did you meet Peter amendments after it had passed this Cancilla that particular morning? | Senate because I had come to this AI am not sure as to that, | Senate and I never——. Senator, I can't say definitely but | Q-<Now, Mr. Baker—— A—Wait I think I met him either in my of- | A minute. Let's get the truth. Now fice, either he had come by there, (do you fellows want to know and told me he had some business | whether they want to get the truth in the State House and I said I was | or not? (to newspaper men), coming here, I think he said he had Q-—You just sit down and we will some business over here, or on Mar- | ask vou questions, A-—-Here, I am ket St. .As to that I am not defi- an individual against six lawyers, It nite, is admitted that this committee is Q—What time in the morning of | six lawyers, and I am not a lawyer. that particular morning that you I am a fellow that they put a rider came to the State House, did you [on and took his job away from him. first see Peter Cancilla? What time | Taking that job away does not hurt in the morning did you first see me. Yes, I loved the job because I him? A—Whenever I met him to | thought I could help the poor people come over here, in Marion County, but you took that Q—What time was that, Mr. away on a vider while I was out of

Baker? A-—I would say, as I recall | it, I could not fix time, as you can't | fix time in the morning, between | il and 12. Q—You met him and came direct from your office to the State House, except that you stopped at the Harrison Hotel? A-—Yes, We stooped at the Harrison Hotel. Q—How long were you and Peter Canciila at the Harrison Hotel?

(Continued From Page Three)

Q-Now, Mr. Baker, who did you talk to about a public hearing that morning? A-That morning? Q—Yes, A-J did not talk to anybody that morning. Q—Well, where did you go after

Senator, that may be a little wrong. I don’t say that I did not talk to anybody about a public hearing, I may have talked to somebody. To A—Oh, 1 would say, that would be | cay’ something definite is Wrong. rather hard to say, but I would say After two weeks or something, I am 10 or 15 minutes, not sure that that is so, that I did Q-Did you see anybody that you | not talk to somebody about a public remember of at the Harrison Hotel hearing. that morning? A-—No, sir, other |

After you were at that place than the bartender that served the Mm A Vo, go? A—After ve drinks. >

Q—You drank in the bar roo IW hl Digs —You drank in t room | i | Q—Yes., AI stood there and there at the Harrison? A-—That is talked to—I don't know, innumers what they call the Tap Room. | able persons, Senator Q—Where did you take the par- | ‘a 'Xvhen did you leave the State ticular drink at the counter or House? A—I left the State House. table or-—— A-—At the bar, | the time I could not tell you. I Q—-Bar? A-Yes, sir, would say would be around noon. Q—Anybody else present? A—If| Q_-Noon? A-I don't know. there was, I do not recall it. | would say it would be before noon,

you went direct to the A—That is right.

drinks State House?

session, Q—What time do you think you

Q—You remember meeting any- | got to the State House? A—Well, I | Downey did give me a copy, what |

body as you went to the State | told you previously that I came House that morning? A—Meeting | here, I think between 11 and 12 anybody, yes. o'clock. Q=Who do vou remember meet- | Q—Can you give us more defiing? A—The first person I re- Nitely the time that got here, Mr.

member meeting was Judge Baker, Baker? A—I don't pull my watch | out every time I walk in some place. p

Q-—Judge ¥Frank Baker? Judge Frank Baker, Q—Where did you meet him? A— I met him in the lower lobby, Q-—Talk to him? A-VYes, sir, Q—Then after talking to Judge Baker where did vou g0? A—Went

around to the elevator and came Q—1 am asking you. Definitely. up to the second floor. A—After I have been up traveling Q—That is the floor upon which | tq get here aN order to testify to the session of the General Assem- | you, for two days. > bly was being held, Mr. Baker? A Q=All right. A—Without any Yes, sir. sleep. ; Q—Who did you see there that Q=Who did you leave the State you remember of? Did you talk to | House with? A—What? anybody? A-—Yes, 1 remember of Q—Who did you leave the State talking, Senator, may I say this——? | House with? A—By myself. Q-—No, please answer my ques- Q—Did you meet anybody after tion. We can’t make a record. A— You left the State House? You can make a record if it is the | Sir. I went directly to my office. truth — if vou want the truth. Q—Did you go back to the HarriQ—We will get the truth. A-Y|Son Hotel? A-—No, sir, I did not am somebody that knows a lot of | £0 back to the Harrison Hotel, people in this town. Q—Was there anybody with you y » n iy Q-1 am asking you the ones you when you left? A—No, sir. T left remembered, Mr. Baker? A se SOU i wes, now trying to remember right Q—Monday? A--Monday. Rous 3h Witerney You Rr! oak Deter \Onncills ‘With putting me on the spot to remem- | after Vou got up on the oy ber certain people. I saw innum- |. the State House? Ae. cane erable pecple — 1 would say at), J up; telling you he ‘came ‘over da } dbeeh that spoke to me and | ore with me and he came over . | here " er ti Q—And iked to you? A=. | here ang I went over there. Joel, newspaper men, all that, could—might relate 15, but I| Q_Did you see him? A--No. sir. might be wrong in 12 of them, I never seen Mr. Cancilla until I Q-—All right, now where did you saw him back here and to tell vou first go after you came up to the the truth I was surprised to see him, second floor of the State House, if standing back there in that aisle. you remember, Mr. Baker? A-I|And I had never seen him from that went back to the office, or to the time until this. cloak room of the House of Rep- Q-=So you did not see him after resentatives, which is directly op- You got up on the second floor of posite here. the State House and after you Q--Did vou see anvbhody there started over to the cloak room of that vou knew and talked to? —Yes. No, sir. Q—Who? A-—I saw former depu- | ‘Q=And you have not seen him ty sheriff, IT would have to think Since that time? A~Until just now. now just of his name. I will think | Q—This morning, just now? Aof it. His name is Billy Sidlinger. This afternoon, not this morning. His father was Sheriff back here, | We will fix the date better with you, Democratic Sheriff along about too, Senator. 1906 or 1908. | Q—Did you see Martin Downey Q—You talked to him? A-—VYes, that morning? A—I am not sure and some one else was with him, [that IT saw Martin Downey that whom 1 can’t recall, somebody else, | morning, I don't recall who that was, Sena- | Q-—Had you seen him the Saturtor, | day before that? AI saw Martin Q—Do you remember anvbody | Downey on several occasions. Sev else that you talked to in the cloak eral isn't the proper word. I had room back of the House of Repre- Seen Mr. Downey probably a half sentatives? A--I don't recall that [dozen times. I was in the cloak room, Senator, Q=Well, do you remember wheththat day. I was there, though, for |er you you saw him the Saturday a particular purpose. Now if you [before that particular Monday that want that purpose I want to give it | I have been inquiring about? A—I to you, think that is the day I met Mr. Q—All right, tell the Committee what purpose vou were there for. | A—I wanted to see that there was a | Senator, is easy enough by the recpublic hearing on Senate Bill 173. (ord. The record is the best thing Q—All right. A—T wanted a pub- | to speak, isn't it? . lic hearing on that bill, Senator, be- | Q—Sometimes. A—Sometimes— cause of the reason that I had [you know it is the best thing. That maintained the biggest county wel- | is what & lawyer says, You know fare board in the State of Indiana it is the best thing. Let's put the with distinct credit by the State clerk on and see. Whatever day it Department and acknowledged by | was after the bill had passed this the Federal Government as the best | Senate, I approached Mr. Downey to County Department in eight states, | whom I heard the bill had been rein which the Security Law ‘was | ferred and I asked him for a copy working. I wanted that because, of it with amendments. I apSenator, I have been a Democrat, proached Mr. Downey to whom I like you have been, all my life, born | heard the bill had been referred, and bred in the principle, and I did | ang asked him for a copy of it with not believe that this bill which took amendments. Now let me explain away from the local taxing units, all | that just a second, if you will, beof their power and placed it in a [cause I had come into this Senate state department which I knew was | and approached the Marion County inefficient and which I can prove Delegation because I had been called is inefficient by the records of the |and told that there were several Marion County Department, was | bills that affected the Welfare the right kind of a bill for this | Board. Let me say in preface to Legislature to pass. That is why I | that, that I had called Mr, Wayne wanted a chance to talk to you and | Cox 60 days ago, and asked Mr. Coy to you, and to you, and to you, and as Director of the State Department to you (pointing to each member of | that if any contemplation was made the committee), but I did not do by the State Department to change

Ae Q-—1 understand you don't but

between one hour and another. Now | can YOU tell me where you were a week ago?

I he with you? A—No, sir.

that is the day--the way to fix that,

vou left the State House? A-—Now, |

can you tell us more definitely the | gone bil time you got to the State House? | e 'A—1 have put it pretty definitely |

A—No, |

that up to that and I only talked— Q—Sit down, Mr. Baker. That was the reason you wanted a public hearing, so that——. Did you talk to anybody about a public hearing that morning? A—I was waiting to talk to Speaker Stein so that I might be assured by him that he would give me a public hearing and that Judiciary A, to which the biil had been referred and the same committee that had the bill in this Senate and which railroaded it | through because why-—because they |

the Welfare Act that he confer with me and Mr, Coy assured me that he would, and I want to say now that Mr. Coy did not do that. Q—And because he did not do that you were mad at him on the first day of March, weren't you? A—No, I was not mad at him. No, Senator. 1 was disappointed in him. Q—You were not angry at him at all? A-No, sir. I was disappointed in him as a lot of other people have been disappointed in Mr. Coy. Q—Now can you tell me whether

said and told me in the Governor's or not you had the original Senate office that this was a MUST bill, | Bill 173 on Monday, March 1, the that must go through, like it was. I | last day you were at the State thought that I had had as much ex- | House? AI cannot tell you that, perience as being director of the | Senator, I asked for a copy of a biggest county in this state, I should | bill and I had several, 1 had rehave a chance to at least offer some | ceived from this office, right here, amendments to it. And about those | several copies. I had received two amendments I will tell you. We will | copies of 173 from this office. I had

into those, to the tive Reference

od Bie. J

them and you can get them, I had received at least three, 1 would say. That was with the amendments that Senator Deniston (libelous matter omitted) and I had received | those three copies from here land T had looked it over and | then I brought back and talked to

you can't find one that I did, outside the Marion County Delegation. First 1 talked to Tommy Hendricks and Tommy said, “Joel you want all this?”

{ | Q=—Yes. | fo [said, I don't suppose, Mr. dricks said, “I think the bill is go-

former floor leader of this Senate, or I called him out, out there where you generally call them if you want to see a Senator and I think he would be glad to come and I said, | “What amendments are going in ( this bill?” He said, “Well the Governor’—get this—"“the ‘Governor has called a caucus.” We want it all in the record. Why not get this? Now I am not going to say too much. “The Governor has called a caucus on this bill and he has told us that this bill must pass as I

[1t is, with a few amendments.

amendments in.” And he showed ( me what the amendments were. I | said “Well, with those amendments [ the bill is not so bad.” I know, I | have been in politics all my life, | since IT was a kid, and I know if

|it is going to be. Q Now, Mr. Baker, to get back

| to your conference with Mr. Dow- |

ney,

did you |B

get original Senate

| Senator, I could not snswer that

| question because while I talked to |

| Senator | Senator

Downey and asked—not Downey, Rep. Downey--

and asked him for a copy of the |

| bill, there were at least a half doz-

en people around there talking to | Q-—Then after you took the two bocause both Houses were still in | POth of us. I think I have related |

[that before,

| Q—-And you don't— A-Mr. NA supposed to be a copy of 173. If that was the original I don't know. I have gotton copies here and I have gotten them back in the Legislative Bureau.

Q—What did you do with the articular bill you got from Mar. |

| Q—Where is it now? A—How

could I tell that when you have |

deposed me and put two fellows in

| there since and they have taken |

even my | there, | Q=Did you go to the Marion | County Welfare Board and try to find it? AT have been out of town since then. Q-You have not been out of town since last Monday. You did not leave until Thursday did you? A | =Oh, no, you are putting it Thurs- | day. Q—When did vou leave, now? A | =I said. I. think Tuesday. of | Wednesday. I went home and my

personal effects out of

wife is sitting there and will teh |

you that I got up to come down | to get those bills after 1 had been | in bed with the flu and went home and stayed in bed.

Q-—-You stayed in bed? A—And

Ito Florida to find out if I could get | the job. I got back yesterday. I 'would not be back today if it had |not been that my name has been nied around by this Committee, | maybe, I say the Committee, but by | witnesses before this Committee and } am here as far as I can to defend

Q—All right, Mr. Baker, that is all right. Now, you do not know

A the House of Representatives? A- “iat became of the particular bill |

[you got from Martin Downey? A-— | The particular bill T had from Mar- | tin Downey—there were four or five bills I had.

Q-—-You did not get those from |

| Martin Downey did you? A-—No, | I did not get them from Martin | Downey. Now, your questions, you ask quick questions, as a lawyer does to trick somebody. Q-—No, I do not want to trick you, Mr. Baker. You have had enough | experience, Mr. Baker. You are not | to be tricked. What did you do with ‘the particular bill you got from | Martin Downey? A-—Now wait, | when I was at that same corner the | Sheriff of Marion County, Otto Ray, [came up and handed me a bill. He | says, “Joel, here is a bill that ought [not to pass.”

| Q—Was that an original bill? A

(1 never, to this day have read a | word of that bill and I understand ‘that a good friend of mine, John Dalton, has been reduced in the Police Department because he said that T was over here to kill that bill | and I never read a word of that bill in my life and don't know what it is yet. They say it was to perpetuate Mr. Morrissey as Police Chief (and I never read a word. I did say (to Otto, 1 said this to Otto Ray, “Sheriff, T will read the bill and if I think it is wrong for the people here in Marion County, I will oppose it and do what I can.” But I didn’t have a chance, because I told you I left the State House, and went to my office, and those bills ought to be in the things that you people have gathered up in my office. Q—Well, now, this bill that you got from Otto Ray-—was that an original bill or a copy of a bill—do you know? A-~I couldn't tell you that, Senator. Q—You don't know what kind of a bill you got from--, A-<He said it was a copy. Q—You don’t know what kind you got from Martin Downey? A-—No, sir, I do not. Q—You don’t know what day you got it from Martin Downey? A— Well, he referred that back Saturday and I believe—that seems right —Saturday or Monday. Q—When did you go to your office, after you got that bill, Mr. Baker? A—I was here on both Sate urday or Monday. Yes— I was in these halls less times than I have been here since I was a little boy. Q—But what time after you got this bill or copy of a bill from Martin Downey did you go to your office at the Welfare Board, Mr. Baker? A-—After I got what? Q—The bill from Martin Downey? A—That I couldn’t—I would say that time element, Senators, was 30 minutes. Q—30 minutes? A-—Yes, that is S0 far as I know. I am not sure about that,

no other Senator in this Senate and |

A—There is no reason | r me to tell everything that was | Hen- |

ing tc pass” and then I went to the |

was successful in getting a few |

that is the way it is, that is the way |

ill 173 from Martin Downey? A-— |

Q—Were you at your office any on the Saturday before March 1st— 27th of February? A—Was I what? Q—At your office on Saturday before March Ist? A—Before March 1st? Q—Yes, the last time you were up here, was Monday, March Ist— were you at your o at all on that Saturday before that? A-— Senator, I can’t answer that truthfully. You have sworn me, and I [can't answer that truthfully, I ‘would have to check it up. Q—You have no distinct remembrance of being at your office on | that Saturday, do you, Mr. Baker? | A—Well, Saturday isn't any other | different from any other day, I— Q—I understand that, but you don’t have any distinct remembrance of being there on that Satur. day? A-—No. These things are all | distinct in your minds because you have been going through this and remember them and this is new to me.

took that bill to your office on

| the office. | Q—=You took it to the office on | the particular day you | A—Yes, that is right.

Q—You don't know whether you it to be.” |

| | |

of Commerce over to take charge of the Department for him, while he was working on something else. Q-All right, tell us about the conversation with him. A—The conversation was this: I said, “Mr, Coy,” —I will have to be a little slow be- | cause I want to be as correct as I can, Senator— Q—We would want you to be. A— Well, you would want me to—I'm not so sure you would want me to,

out that I might be a man that drinks a lot of whisky. Senator, do 1 look like that kind of a man? Q—You look very well. A=-Don't mistake me; I take a drink once in a while.

ily you know I am not. (Mr. Hoff brought Mr. Baker two cups of water, saying: “This second one is a chaser.)

Senator, Q—Go ahead ang tell us what it | wis. A—"This bill, Wayne, is against democratic principles. While it may place in the hands of the Department you are now the head | of” . . . which I understand he won't be the head of if he went | to the Phillipines , .. “it gives 100 much power to the kind of social workers that I have found are not | the kind of people who ought to be at work with the poor people if | the National Security Act is what | I think the Democratic Party wants

Q—All right, what did he say? A

go.”

Q-—=What did you say? A-=I said

got the bill? “Wayne, I don't believe that, be-

cause I talked to Dick Heller this |

| Q-—Now, the day before you got | afternoon and Mr. Heller told me |

that bill,

from Martin Downey, | that it came from a man hamed

| which you say may have been a | Bane.”

[copy of a bill? A—Well, along with some other bills, because I got three or four others.

the day before? | fore 1 got the bill? answer that, Senator. Q—Had you seen him within three or four days before you got the bili? A—Yes, Q—Where had you seen him? A

I couldn't

| islature. Q—Had you seen him over at the Harrison Hotel? A-Yes, | there with him once. Q—Were you with him in a room? Q—Where were you with him at | the Harrison Hotel? | there with Peter Cancilla, and | Senator Downey, as I recall it, | came in, and like vou will, fellows,

had a drink, and we— Q—When was that, with refers ence to the time you got the bill, | Mr. Baker? A-—Senator, you have asked me whether it was three or four days, and I have told you I [can't tell you and don't—I don't | remember exactly | to what time it was, because that has b2en two weeks ago, and 1 | wasn't that concerned. I wasn't concerned with it then. I was concerned with it here in the Senate and 1 know when you work on a | bill you don't work on it in the | House tintil it has passed the Senate or you work in the House until | it gets to the Senate.

| then? —1 had seen him here in the Leg- |

walked away from me, yes. 1 was |

Q=Al right, then what did you | say? A=I said, “well, I am going to attempt to see Governor Town-

Q-—Did you see Martin Downey | send. They all say that Governor | A=The day be. Townsend is strong for this bill, but |

if Governor Townsend is the kind | of a Democrat that I fought for, | he don’t believe in this kind of centralization of power.” Q—All right, what did he say A-That was all the conversation, Q—He walked away? A — He That is

the last time 1 have ever seen

| Wayne Cov.

there one night

A<=No, sir, | the dates, I would have to have a

A—T was in |

he came up to the bar with us, and | | the Senate.

Q—When was this, A-—-That was, I say,

Mr. now,

Baker? to fix

calendar like you have in front of vou. Well, I wouldn't know because you have been fixing them by bills and I can't fix by bills. It was while this bill was pending in | It was the night—I'll | tell you when it was—~. Now, if you can fix the date there bv vour

| calender—the record is always the

| best thing,

with reference |

isn't it, Senator, and I am not a lawyer. The record is the best thing. The record speaks for itself. It was the night in

| which you wrote in the bill about

SiX or seven amendments which

you had compromised on in a cau-

(of a politician, Senator.

Q-<Now, other than that time | when Mr. Downey, you say, took |

a drink with you at the Harrison | Hotel, had you met him during that week at any other place? A | =No, sir, T don’t believe I had met | Mr. Downey. 1 might have met him

| now

[in the Claypool Hotel, because as |

meet fellows in different—I may | have met Mr. Downey in the Clay- | pool Hotel. | Q-<Had you talked | about this particular bill?

| passed the bill—that is, to the best [of my recollection, Senator. Q—The Senate passed the bill, for

your information, Mr. Baker, on that, Mr. Baker? A~I heard about | [that the first person that told me | Cancilla was your that gentlemen here. | A-Yes, |

| Feb. 27th. A—What date is that? Q—Friday, Feb, 27th, A-—-That is Friday, yes.

vou know, you go around and you |

cus called by the Governor who told you that this bill must pass, Q—And because of those facts, and those circumstances, Mr. Baker, you were rather indignant, were you not? A--No, I am not that kind If T know I am up against the nuts I take it. Q-—And you felt that it was all right? You had no feeling about it at the time? A--No. No, so far as Wayne Coy is concerned-—heck— | Wayne Coy-—he never meant any- | thing to me in his life, and don't (snapping his fingers) other | than he might be punched in his | nose in a fight. Why, I have seen

{other fellows punched in the nose | ih a fight and that is all there is |

to that. Q—Dig you know of him having | A—I heard |

A—TI heard about that, the | morning that I told you about, I was standing over there—,

Q-—When did you first hear about

was

QA newspaper man?

| Q-—The first conversation you had | Mr. Toms. I was standing by a pil-

| with him concerning this particular lar and he came up and said, “Pete | it it had been some bill was after it passed the Senate? | has hit Wayne Coy.” I might qualify that. | Tubby?

| A—Well, now,

taken about that, from the official record. MR. BAKER--Yes, check that. Q—Sunday was the 28th of February, and Saturday was the 27th, Mr, Baker. It passed just a day or two before that time. A-—Well, whatever time it was, it was about that time, Senator, I wouldn't answer that definitely, what time my first conversation was with him, Q-—Now, what was your conversation with Mr. Downey concerning this particular bill? A-I told Mr. Downey that I was opposed to certain provisions in the bill, that first, I opposed it because it was against democratic principles. I knew that it placed in one man’s hands too much power. Y knew that because of what I had found out about the State Department of Public Wel-

Downey and asked him—now, if | =I am telling you this Senator, that | fare,

| _ Q=Who was the head of the State Department of Public Welfare? A ~Mr. Wayne Coy.

Coy had been exercising too much power as head of the Department of State Welfare? A-—-No, I don't think Mr. Coy knew even what was going on in the Department. Q—You felt that—you had a feel ing of animosity against him, A-— No, he had four jobs to take care of —WPA— Q--You did not have any animosity against Mr, Wayne Coy? A —No, sir, I did not. Do not now. Q-—You liked him as a brother? A-—No, not as a brother. No, sir. Q—What were you—neutral on the proposition, so far as Wayne Coy is concerned? A-Do you want all of our relationship? Q-~1 am asking you whether you had like or dislike toward Wayne Coy. A—Why do we have to be so specific? Q—Why shouldn't we be? Aw The public wants to know Q—I don't know—are you talking to—or trying to testify to the Committee or to the public, Mr. Baker? A—Well, I want the public to know something about the truth, Q-—All right, we are trying to find out—, A—I'm up against six law. vers, and it's pretty tough for one guy to be doing it, Q-—Well, there's just one talking to you now. A-—Yes, but you're pretty good, I told you that. Q-—What I would like to know, Mr. Baker-—for you to tell us candidly, now, whether you had, because of this Senate Bill No, 178, any feeling or any animosity against Wayne Coy. A--I did not on account of that, because the only con-versation--do you want me to relate that? Q—You had two conversations with Wayne Coy? A-—I did have with Wayne Coy, about 173, and Tat was Standing right back Shere indicating). was with one of his

MR. BEDWELL—We may be mis- | the—we'll get it | I tell you what I did. I knew every-

Q--Did you feel that Mr. Wayne |

| people in this towne

out not

Remember it Q-—-What did you say to him? A—

body knew Pete and I were friends and I was trying to do something I knew was for the good of the public in Marion County and to be connected with that—1 knew I shouldn't be around and I left and went to my office, Q-Now, how soon, after he told you that did you go to your office? A—Within the next five minutes. Q—Was that the reason, Mr. Baker, for your leaving right then, and going to the office, simply beCause Awa] never had talked to Speaker Stein about the public hearing. Q-—Merely because Cancilla ‘was your friend you left immediately and went to your office? A--I know

Pete Cancilla can take care of him- |

self any place. Q-~Yes, I know you know that. That was the sole reason for your leaving immediately after you got that information and going to your | office—the fact that Peter Oancilla was your friend—is that right? A-— Well, I knew-here, Senator, I have told you that; I told you-—you said sole reason and I have already answered that before that Q-—All right, what other reason besides that? A<T said I was interested in the welfare of a lot of

Q—T—— A<But I took my part in the job. Q—Were you interested in Peter Cancilla? AJ] was interested in Peter Cancilla and I am still interested in him, Q-—Well, was that the sole reason why you left immediately after the attack and went back to your office? A<I wouldn't know of any other reason. If you can suggest one, T will think of it. Q=You can’t tell us any other reason—any other than your friend. ship for him? A-X told you, now, in the answer—Let the stenographer read another answer in this—don't ask me that again. Let the stenographer read another answer that I have already given why I left, because I knew that in my official position as Welfare Director of Marion County, and my friendship for Peter Cancilla, that If I ‘was around here at that time they would try to link me; and what have they done now? They have indicted me on it, and I didn’t even see the fight. Well, think of that, SenaLO —

Q-—All right. sit right down, Mr.

{ the matter?

| say, Senator. | that. Q—Did vou try to ascertain how | House or the north?

That's the first I knew it. |

| Pearson, and by

Q-—Now, Mr. Baker, after you

cilla striking Wayne Coy, you say

pened. Q—Did you ask him the details of A-—No, I didn't because he was running to get his stories on the press, and which he

| will testify to if called, and he was

with another newspaper man. Q—Did you ask any other person the details of the matter? A-=Did I ask any other details? Q—Yes. A—At about that time,

Saturday or not, do you? A—What- | —He said, “Well, Joel, this act's | Or a little previous to that I had ever day I got the bill I took it to from Washington, and it's got to talked to someone there, in the cor-

ridors of the State House, let me see, the last person I talked to, Senator, now while you haven't known me very well, when 1 walk in here, there are 50 people know me, and I don't know how many

| people 1 talked to.

Q-—Now, I am asking you this, Mr, Baker, after Mr. Toms notified you of this attack on Wayne Coy, did

you talk to anybody? A=You mean |

in the State House? @-—Yes, here in the State House? A—That would be hard for me to

I am not sure about |

| | |

Do I look like that kind | they have under that, because if a | of a man? If you look at my fam- man, I chose three doctors in this

| |

| were first notified of Peter Can- |

[by Mr. Toms? A-—That is the first realize, we can't be here forever, | | man that told me that had hap-| A—No, I didn't even want to come, |

| i

[

| that,

though you have attempted to bring | isn't the only case I can give you

and that is the weakest department —I hope I don't say anything derogatory to anyone here because | I am not here to do that, because | it is the weakest department that |

R-—Well, we can't Mr. Baker, you |

but I thought, I think the public | wants to know something about | the truth, and this would be a good | time to turn a little out there.

Q=If you will let us get along with this examination, maybe you | can give a statement out, A=You | asked me about Wayne Coy. 1 never even called Mr, Coy about | I had the head of my blind |

department call the blind depart- | ment of the State, which is the proper way to function in a busi | ness organization. Tt is not for the head to go to the head, Tt is for | the department head to go to the | other department head.

Q=What I was asking vou about, | Mr. Baker, is that morning when | you left the State House, the morn- | ing of the Coy attack, and went direct to your office, and I was ask- | ing you how you went, and you told me, I believe, you don’t know? A=Sir? | Q-You told me you don't know. | AI went over Market St.

Q—=You don't know whether you |

| |

I had been told in the Governor's office that it would be.

Q=Now, you were very anxious to do something about this Senate Bill 173? A=Would you let me explain why? Q=You have already explained that, haven't you? No use going over and explaining why, A=s Marion County is different. If you have given up several positions of your life, different than you have given to the rest of vour life to do something honestly, shouldn't there be an opportunity then to be heard before the party that you have bes longed to all your life, does somes thing to take away the principles on which you have stood? Q-—That is the way you felt about Senate Bill 173? A=That is exe actly how I feel Q=-This second bill, 463, you knew that was going through? A-—=Well, here is what I know, Mr. Denton. I don't know it; it's what I think. I think TI know enough about the Legislature, you are asking me a very pointed ques= tion. I think every one knows that has any connection with the Legiss lature that when a Legislature is controlled and a bill is supposed to be passed, with a very definite ma= jority on each side that bill will pass, Is that right, Mr, Denton? Q--You felt that way about 463? A=Yes, I thought there was a poss sibility in this because=now, I want you to get me right on my point=—on 173 because 1 had been told in the Governor's office that the Governor was not entirely in sympathy with the bill, but had been told and I told Mr. Heller that I thought he had been, the Govs

House Bill

| went out the east end of the State | ernor had been misled by peoples

A—~Went out |

by maying that the United States

bad Mr. Coy was injured? A=-I did and cut down-—I might have cut | Government would say that a state | down, they have a path worn down | government must write a law ex Q--Did you ask any questions now, which they didn't use to let |actly as the national Government about it? A= I did not. I went to| them cut down when I worked in |sends it down. my office, and I will tell you what I| the State House,

not,

| said.

Q-=-Did you go to the particular place

this side—I wasn't on this side of the Legislature that morning, Q-=What side were you on when this particular attack took place? Were vou on the east side? A-— What do you do, try to wear you out with the same question? 1 told vou I was standing at that pillar over at the entrance to the speakor's office, waiting to talk to Speaker Stein, and then Tubby Toms and another newspaper man came running down there, and Tubby Toms said to me that Pete has hit Wayne Coy. Q-—All right, did he stop there to talk to you? A--No, he went on in the press room, newspaper men when they have a story—— Q-Did you ask anybody what he had struck him with? A-=I know

| something about Pete, and 1 know

he don't need anything any time but his fist. Q-—You didn't ask how he had struck him or any details concern= ing the matter? A-I did not. Q-—You went right to the elevator and went to the office? didn't go to the elevator. I walked down the stairway and went to my office. Q=Which stairway did you go down, Mr. Baker? A=Now, I will have to think about that, I am not quite sure, Semator, I went either

I am not sure. Q--You don't know which door? I wasn't running or anything. Q-—Were you excited? A=Why, | no, what was there for me to be ex- | cited about? Q-=1 don't know. You knew Peter friend, A=Yes, I

know Peter Cancilla, Xf he gets in

he can take care of himself. Now,

my frien I would have rushed to help him. | Q=Wayne Coy was not your | friend, was he? YY go into all the history of Senator? Wd am asking, was Wayne Coy vour friend? A-—He is not, an int mate friend of mine. We have been on friendly relations over the phone between the two departments. We have never been on any other terms except over some things. There are only three things, three things—there is a blind de partment which the State pays B ; of it for, why don't you listen to He has said that I threate I did not threaten him. K r whether Wayne sa ghd that is wrong, because he has never said it to me, But it gus heen published in the press. So two applications filed for blind per sons on June 18 from a little Wn of Wanamaker, Ind. that is in Marion County, Their name is the way, Senator, he same Pi vo do, I understand, because wants Chairman had called me up. Two of the Judges of the Superior Courts of this County had called me up. And they live in a little house there by themselves in the town of wanamaker, If there is anybody here from Wwanamaker, they know where that is. It is out here by Acton, and they didn't even know about a blind pension, But the way they make their living fis, in the summer time, digging wells. Can you imagine that? Digging wells! That is the way they make their livelihood. They save up enough to keep them, but the house, it seems, when you g0 into a thorough investigation, is owned hv five brothers, and sisters. I had discovered that, but I made a recommendation to the State Depart ment that these two blind men be allowed $20 a month-be allowed $20 a month, That recommenda tion went in after a thorough in=vestigation by competent. people, one of them the son of the State Department, if YOi Plunge: Mr, Coy 5 supposed to represent. » Qe Was it turned down, Mr. Bak. er? A—Was it turned down? Tt was-—just wait=it hasn't been ssed on yet! P a—You didn’t like it because it hadn't been passed on? A=No, and don't like it now. 1 Q--You were angry at Wayne Coy? A-=No, not at Wayne Coy, because 1 know Wayne Coy don't know what goes on in that office.

1 don't

they belong to f

Baker AI] Jot you defend me on it. I may hire you yet. I told | you you were good | Q=After Mr. Toms had advised you—— A-—You have asked me so | much. Like a speaker—may I have | a little water? They have given me the razz here pretty good. 1 hope 1 a wa guy that is wie days and nights the way he ought to be even > }

He told me he did not. Q-—Had you talked to him about that blind pension matter? A--How are you going to talk to Wayne Coy about blind pensions? Q--Had you talked to him? A No, you can't even do it, You can't even do it, My people had four from the blind ment over to the

| |

| | | |

[ say,

A—No, T|

out the east door or the north door. sick another day

an altercation with somebody else, |

| | |

d that I thought couldn't, |

A=Well, do you

ned him. |

Q--You don't know whether vou | went on that path or not, Mr, Bak- |

where Pete Cancilla had er? A-=No, I don't. i | struck him? A--I did not. I never | | was on that side—=let's see, it's on

Q—Do you remember anybody | you saw that morning when you | left the State House? A=That | would be awfully hard for me to | I might have seen somebody. | I would not say yes or no about it, | Q—(BY MR. DENTON)=Now, | Joel, after you went to vour office what did you do then? A=You | mean the first thing? Q—The first thing that Monday? | A—The first thing, I said--. Q=What did you do after you | went to your office? A=The first | thing 1 did, Mr. Denton, 1 sat in my chair, let me relate it exactly like it happened because I rve-

membered it, and I called in Miss |

Church, as I recall it, and maybe somebody else that TI particularly trusted there in that office, and I said that I understand Pete and Wayne Coy have had a fight. That was the first thing 1 did, Q=How long did you stay there? A=-Well, now, I came over here between 11 and 12. I didn’t stay there long after that, Mr. Denton, Q-—About how long? A = I couldn't say, I would say 15 minutes, Q—Then where did you go?

Indiana Democratic Club and had lunch and went home because I told you I had been sick with the flu, and then went home and was

Q—You stayed home the rest of that day? A=-That is on Monday, the first, isn't it?

Q-~That 1s right. A=To the best |

of my knowledge, Mr. Denton, that is true, I can't say for sure. ..Q==Next day you went home and stayed there? A--Next day I stayed home, all day. Q-—~That was Tuesday? A--What day--on Wednesday I left for Flor

body that was ida,

Q=You have known Peter Can. cilla a number of years? Mr. Cancilla in 1931. Q=-And you have known him for five or wix years? A=Yes, sir, 1

have known him longer than that |

since 1931, Q=You knew about this trouble he had been in? A<What trouble? Q=-This fight he had with Wayne Coy? A=I told you where I had heard about it, Q=Had you talked to anyhody else about that fight he had with Wayne Coy? A=] am telling you there was a bunch around there, Mr. Denton. You are making it awfully definite there, and I want to

| be as square and honest as you want

fd that, and |

me to be, Q--Between the time that you heard this from Tubby Toms, and

[you left the building, and the time

you went to Florida had you talked | to anyone about this fight Wayne | Coy had with Peter Cancilla? A= Wait a minute—let the reporter read that question to me. (The reporter repeated the question), A-- | I could not answer that definitely. Q-~You can't? A=No, I can't, Q-—Did anybody come out and | see you and talk to you about it? | A-—To6 my house? Q=Yes, A==No, sir, Q--Did you leave your house, then? A-~When? Did I leave my | house? Q=Yes, A=No, I told my wife not to let anybody know that I was at home, Q=-You did not want anybody to know you were home? A-<For this reason, Senator, I was not feeling and was sick, and had been sick with the flu and if it hadn't been to come down to see about the bil), I never would have been in this Legislature, Q=You did call Miss Church up twice on Wednesday? A=Well, 1 have a way of calling Miss Church up on a private phone to find out-well, that was because I was that much interested in the office, if there might Le some calls for me or something important I might do over the telephone, Q--She spoke to you about the fact that there were police out there? A<-She told me it was kind of hard to do work with a bunch of flatfeet standing around, Q=Yes, you and she talked about the police being out in front? A= No, I don’t know how many police there were because I didn't see it, Q«~Weren't you interested enough in your office to want to know who the police were? A=Why you had already started your bill in with the rider to take me out of office, Q-This investigating committee? A-I don’t know about the investigating committee, That was not in the bill. That was after that, QI don't know, the same day, I think, A--You are not sure of your dates; I am not, but the bill had been started, And I already knew the bill was going to pass,

—

Ae From there I think IT went to the |

A=] met

Q-—Now, let me get this — Do you believe in that, Mr, Denton? Q=-Now, Senate Bill 173, you thought you could have a publie hearing, and probably amend the bill or stop it? A=Well, I knew there wasn’t a chance to stop it, but I thought some things could be put in to help it. Q=But 463 now you didn’t do anything about it? A=-463 cams out==you will have to get me the date. Q=-1t was Tuesday.

A=On what

day? Q=Tuesday, A=Where was it introduced? Q=-In the House. House on Tuesday? | Wednesday morning, | Q=-That isn't what I want to ask [ you, A=I wasn't here, Q==-You left Wednesday? A==Yes, Q—You didn't make any attempt to do anything about it? A-I left lon Wednesday, Do you think I [could attempt to do that in four or | five hours? I have worked here 80 [days on bills, and talked to 150 | members of this Legislature. And | they have been passed by the House | two years ago, you have gone inte | that, as I read in part of the testi | mony. | Q-—You stayed out at your house all the while 463 was being cons sidered? You didn't do anything about that? A-=No, I don't know | how long you took to consider. T | haven't seen it. Give me the hiss | tory of it and I will tell you. | Q=You didn't do anything about [that bill? A=Get the record on | that, The record is the best thing, | Q==Answer me this one question: | Did you do anything to try to des feat House Bill 463? A=1 was never | in the Legislature on that bill, Q=-Did you ever get in touch with | any of your friends, and try to des | feat it? A=1I did not. | Q—Did anybody communicate | with you about it? A=They did | not, Q=-Did you make any effort te | get in touch with Peter Cancilla? | A==1 did not, Q=~You and he had been friends for years? A=1 have been friends with Pete Cancilla and still am, since about 1932, | Q=Now, before you left for Flors | ida, did you do anything to try and find out anything about his wheres abouts? A=-I did not, ®@=Did you call up anybody and [ask about it? A==I think not. Q-=Did you learn where he was? A=] did not. I was busy. . +» « If you will get the testimony back before , . . I had called for myself to get a job that would take me out | of politics, | Q=Wait a minute , , , A=, | Which any man that has been in ft [as long as I have knows ought to {be a wonderful opportunity . . . Q=We have been over that two or three times, A-—That is the sees ond time. I answered Mr. Beds well, Q-=Why didn't you try to get in touch with Canecilla? A=Why didn't 1? He just had a fight with

A=Tn ths I left hers

| | | | |

somebody,

R-<You came here and went away as =00on as he had a fight? A =I shouldn't be around where there is a fight, because I was the head of a welfare department. I should not be around where there was a fight where a friend of mine was involved. Q=Why didn't you try to find out where he was? A=How could I see where he was, Q=~Find hix whereabouts, A «= He was in Indianapolis, as far as I knew, with his wife, I didn’t know where he was, Q=<Who did you tell you wers going to Florida? A= only told two persons, Q==Who was that? A<That is Mrs. Baker, who ix sitting there (indicating) and the maid that works at our house, and I said: “Don’t let anybody know where I am or communicate with me.” Q=Why didn’t you want anys body to know where you were? Awe Because it was a business deal, Q=When you go away oh a busi ness deal, do you have to keep eve erything secret? A--Keeping it a secret, a business deal? Q==Yes, A=This happened to be something, Mr. Denton, I was on a job, Q=-What job were you on? A w= «Which I had only had and been removed from, and I was going te be quick as I could on the trigger to get it. Q=And you didn't tell a soul bes fore you left town except your wife and the maid at your house? A= I don't know of anybody else. Maud, do you know of anybody else? (Ad= dressing Mrs, Baker), She knows all of it because I left the house theres, Q«-Now, you have been kept in touch with this in 2 Aw