Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 8 March 1937 — Page 4

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ONDAY, MARCH 8, 1937 _

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"PAGE 4 THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES

Verbatim Testimony at Joel Baker-Cancilla Investigation

Q—When you were over here so- | liciting interests in behalf of the

said to Senator, I said, “You put me { words, he said I was over here behind the eight ball, sure. You | raising hell; I ain't got a chance. bills you were interested in were | know I never said a word like that. Q—Who said you were here rais-

. : he , y ’ i 1 i . - the gentleman to my | nection with that particular court? Dugan and myself were standing at | numerous things; go talk to wit-) never seen » my, A—Investigator. ? |the west end of the lunch counter, nesses for and against this, and go | knowledge. Wouldn't know him if | Q-—Investigator for whom? A— | Mr. Cleary come from the House {and talk to prisonefs in jail, if they (I would see him coming into tel : J | : : | Judge Frank P. Baker. | towards the Senate. He came over {are in jail, talk to them down there. | room. | you on duty at that time? A-—Yes, | Never was mentioned no way, shape ing hell. A—Morrissey. He said Q—You mean that the Criminal land says “That was a damn pitiful | Q—You make a written report to Q—You were working along in |SIl- | nor form about me saying, You ‘he heard I was here raising hell; Court has an investigator that in- thing, that fellow hitting Wayne Judge Baker? A-—I would make the same court with Joel Baker| Q—How much time did you spend watch your step between the House | I said 1 wasn’t; I was just over. I | vestigates for the Judge or Prose-|Coy,” that is the exact words he some written and some verbal. when he was made Supervisor or| over here in the State House? A— [I mean between She. State Aiouse | mil I was over, I didn’t want him cutor? A—Yes, sir, on cases that he said. I said “I heard Wayne got hit | Q—When you return to Judge | Director of the Marion County Wel- I do not believe any day that I| 2nd my room, ang Sn ere to be a perpetual cheat. I said, I wants to know the stuff about, then |at a Democratic convention here be- | Baker after investigations, you tell | fare Board? A—Yes. | would be over here an hour, | Yas pola youl = aaa Su bio, no »| was against that; then he asked he sends me out. |fore.” That was all that was said, | him about the people that you | Q—And prior to that time you had | _ Q@—An hour each time? A—Well, | Corie della ie y I Rr] me practically the same question Q—By whom are you assigned only a second, and he walked into |talked to? A-—Yes. been Chief Investigator in Baker's) I would not say hour each time. , . Vel | vou: folks: did h ive hi 1 ) arg “ow a i . ; : heard a word to that effect.” | you 10°RS aid, W100 give Dim the through the Criminal Court? A— | the Senate Chamber; was not an-| Q-—And what they say with re | Court? A—Well, as probation of- Not an hour each time, sometimes . | authority. Then he said vou stay By Whom? | other word spoken. That was the gard to the incident or the man | too. ? came in and maybe stay a half- | Q—Now at the time that you were | way, that was the day “prior to ‘Q—Yes? A—Chief of Police. | complete conversation. |charged with crime? A—Yes. ) . ‘hour or, 25 minutes. I will say 45 demoted, from whom did that ac-)'p the letter | $7 ; 4 1 . | Q—As probation officer you had |. : : ti ® A--Chief of lice | the day I got the letter for the re- | Q—That is Mr. Morrissey? A—| Q—That was the complete con Q—What action does he take on |, = H% DOC b t | minutes of the time will cover every | tion come? A ief of Police No, I was not assigned by him. verstion? A—Complete conversa- | o. . reports? A—Well, that is va on Or a number Ol Years, | g,y y was here. | Morrissey. | Jerry Kinney was Chief of Police | sation; never occupied, I'll say, ten | _ | L Suppose: | Q—Did you come over alone or| Q—And did you have a hearing? |

The complete verbatim testimony of witnesses at Saturday’s hearing of the Joel Baker Investigating Committee follows:

FRANK G. THOMPSON

Q—State your name, please? A— Frank G. Thompson. { Q—What official connection have you with the 80th General Assembly? A—Member of the House of Representatives.

Q—As a matter of fact you were

. if he tries Q—Well, you know if he would have

Q—From what district? A—

From Wells and Adams Counties. Q—What unofficial position have you in the Democratic Majority? A-—Democratic Floor Leader of the House. Q—You know nev? A-—I do. Q-—What official position does he hold in the House in this session? A—Chairman of Judiciary A. Q—Are vou acquainted with Bill No. 173? A-—I am, Q--State what, if anything, you know about the progress of Senate Bill No. 173. After it came to the House, was it referred to the Committee on Judiciary A. A-—You want me to proceed? Q—Just go ahead. A-I am not able to state just the number of days it remained there, but I think from Saturday until Monday. I believe it- came and was assigned to that committee on Saturday. On Monday, March 1, as Floor Leader, I went to Mr. Downey and asked to have the bill reported out. He in-

Martin L. Dow-

formed me that he was not ready |

to report it out; that he was going to have a public hearing. I asked him why it was necessary to have a public hearing, and he said because there was a lot of objections. I asked him when he expected to have this public hearing and he said Tuesday evening. 1 said, “Well, Mr. Downey, if vou have a public meeting on Tuesday evening, the bill cannot get out until Wednesdav, then it has to be printed and it will slow the thing up so it might not get through without suspending the rules, and I did not want to have to do that.” He said he could net help it, there was demand for public hearing; that Joel Baker and some men from Marion County were interested in the bill and wanted a public hearing, and some people from Lake County; that they though there was a lot of dvnamite in it and would upset the county organizations over the state, and I insisted further on getting the bill cut immediately and he informed me that the bill would not be brought out before a public hearing was held. Q—Did he tell vou at that time that Joel Baker had possession of that bill? A—No, he told me that Joel Baker objected to the bill and wanted it brought before a public hearing. Q—When next did you talk to Downey about the bill? A—I didn’t talk to Mr. Downey about it after that. Q—With reference to the time of the asault on Wavne Coy, had you talked to him about the bill after A-—-After that, 1 did, yes. After talking to him first, I felt it was my oificial duty that some action be had on the bill. I reported my conversation to Mr. Crawford, Mr, Coy, and that information was relayed to the Governor. The Governor then, if I understand it correctly, called Mr. Downey to his office for conference. Q—You were not present in the corridors of the State House when assault was committed? A— was on the floor of the House. Q—You have no knowledge at this time 23 to the whereabouts of Senate Bill No. 173? A-—I have not. O—Did Downey ever say anything to you to the effect “To hell with you guys,” when you spoke to him about the bill? A—1 cannot sav that he used just those words, Mr. Denton, but he gave me to understand the bill was in his Committee and he would do as he pleased with it, I can not say that he used just those words. Q—Now, what day was that? A— It was on Monday morning, first of March, I believe. Q—You know Wayne Coy? 1 do. Q—Did vou see Wayne Coy over at the State House that day? A— I did. Q—Did you see Wayne Coy talkbill? A—

that?

this

A—

ing to Downey about this No, I did not. Q—Wavne Coy talk to you about it? A—Yes Q—You know Joel No. I don’t know him WITNESS EXCUSED,

the Committee. A—John F. Dalton. @—What is your buisenss, Mr. Dalton? A—Police officer, City of Indianapolis Q—How long have you been a police officer of the City of Indianapolis? A-—22 years. @—You are a police officer at the present time? A—Yes, sir. 1 was Detective Sergeant, reduced to firstorade patrolman. ~ Q—When were you a Detective sergeant, for what length of time? A—Well, from, I think, 1918 until 1925, and from then I was reduced, during the Republican Administration, and put back again in 1927, I think. I think I was out 27 months. Q—And since 1927 you have served as a Detective Sergeant, up to what time? A—The third of this month, third of March. Q—Now, previous to the third of

Baker? A—

JOHN F. DALTON

@—You may state your name to |

March, while you were a Detective |

Sergeant, where were you assigned?

A—I was assigned to the Criminal |

Court of Marion County, Judge Baker's Court.

Q—That is Judge Frank P. Bak-

er's Court? A-—It is, yes. Q—What were your duties in con-

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Q—You had been assigned to that Court for what length of time? A— From the day that Judge Baker took office, that is, well, years the first of this year. Q—And during all of that time it was your particular duty to investigate criminal matters and ad-

| vise the court concerning the same? |

A—On cases that he would send me on, yes, sir, Q—You worked wholly under his authority? A—No, the Chief of Police. I report at headquarters every dav. Q—But vou took directions as to your particular work from the Judge of the Court? A—That work there, yes, sir. Q—Did Joel Baker have any con- | nection whatever with that Court during the time that you were there, assigned? A—He was there as a probation officer, I'll say for four years.

Q—Four years? A-—Yes.

Q-—As a probation officer, tell us!

just what familiar?

he did. We are not A—Well a man that the

Judge would put on probation, like |

if a man would be fined, say, well, whatever the fine is, say $1 and costs, six months. whatever they are fined, they had to report back to

him so often, sav once a week, and | have a form made out, they give to | them; what church they go to and | much !

stuff like that, and how money they made in the period between the notes, and what they spent it for, and what were their daily habits. Q—How long did he perform duties there as a probation officer? A—Well, I'll say three or four years. Q—Well, did he perform duties there after he was appointed as Welfare Director for Marion County? A—No, never did. Q—Now, do you know Peter Cancilla? A—Yes, sir. Q-—How long have vou been acquainted with him, Mr. Dalton? A—Well, I couldn't say. First I met him was in Criminal Court. I couldn't sav when. He was there on a trial, I couldn't say how long that has heen. Q—He was an attorney, practicing here in the City of Indianapolis? A—Yes, he was practicing. Q—Was he a friend of Mr. Joel Baker, to your knowledge? A— | Well, I guess he was. I seen them together, but I don’t know how good friends, but I seen them together, yes. { Q—You have any knowledge about his criminal record prior to this incident of the { Wayne Coy, as an officer?

The Times had articles about him; had his there. Q—You got your information from those articles, not as official | police? A—No, I never had no official knowledge of it, just what came out in the papers. | Q-—Now, since the time that this | session of the Legislature has been open, Mr. Dalton, how often have you heen over here at the Legislature? A—I'll say altogether about eight times, Q—Upon the occasion that you came to the Legislature, what caused you to come? bill in there. It was restoration of our wages we had previous to our cut, Q—Yes, was that the only matter you were interested in? ested in mostly, yes, sir. Q—Well, what else other that were you interested in? Well, I was not interested in other bill.

in there picture in

than

Q—Did you talk to any members | of the Legislature about any other |

bill? A-—I did.

Q—What particular bill? A—Well, |

I don't know the number of it. It was the bill to make the Chief of

Police jobs and Fire Chiefs of this |

town permanent. Q—And any other bills? that restoration of salary. Q—You talk to any member about the Welfare Bill? A—The Welfare

A—Oh,

Bill, yo, siree, I did not know noth- |

ing about the Welfare Bill. Q—When you came over here to discuss this restoration of salary | with the different members, Mr. ' Dalton, were you sent by any one, {or coming of your own accord, or how did it happen? A—My own ac- | cord. Q—You were not employed as a legislative employee. A—No, sir. Q—Firemen or police or anything | else? A—No, sir. | Q—Did you have a discussion with Senator Cleary here in the lobby of the State House? A—About what do you mean?

Q—Well, about any legislation or |

any matter? A—No, one day I asked him what he thought about our bill for restoration of wages. | says “I am for the police and firemen first, last and all the time.” Q—Were you here upon the par-

ticular occasion when Wayne Coy |

| was assaulted? A—No, sir. Q—You were not. A—No, sir. Q—Or after that? A—I was here | about—I got in here about a quarter of three, between twenty min- | utes and a quarter of three in the afternoon. | Q—Lasi Monday? A—The day of the occurrence, yes. :

Q—Did vou see Mr. Cleary then? |

A—Yes, sir,

it is SIX |

slugging of | A—Yes, | here, I'll say two or three vears ago, !

A—Well, there was a |

A—Inter- |

He |

| about that? | general talk. | | Q—You know what particular | | Democratic convention that was? | A—No, I could not say what par- | | ticular Democratic convention | was. | Q—You didn’t talk to any other | { members of the General Assembly {that day? A-—That day? | Q=—Umhuh? A—No, sir, not a one. | | Q-—Did you see Joel Baker or | Pete Cancilla that day? A—I saw | Joel Baker once in three months, | and that was either last Thursday | lor last Friday. Q—Where did you see him last Thursday or Friday? A-—He was standing by the shoe shining stand | | as you come out of the House. Q—You mean last Thursday or last Friday of this week? A—Not this—this past week. Q—You mean last week? week, ves. Q—You did not talk to him? A— No, spoke to him, and came over to | | the Junch stand. He was talking to two fellows, I don’t know who they | were, Q—He never said anything to you about this particular Welfare Bill? | A—No, sir, nobody ever mentioned the Welfare Bill to me in my life. Never knew what the bill was about until this trouble occurred. Q—Did you say anything to Mr. Cleary that in substance that some of the members of the Legislature | had better look out or they will not get back to the Claypool Hotel? A —Never said a word like that in my life, never to nobody, to nobody. Q—Mr. Dalton, whom do you repert to every morning when you 80 to work? A-—You mean now or be- | fore? Q—Before?

it |

A—Last

A—Chief of Police

| Fred Simon. Detective Chief of Po-

lice, Fred Simon. Q—Then, where do vou go? A— I go to the lineup, what they call the showup, lots of mornings, then go to court, Q—Then go to court? A—Yes. sir. Q—Was court in session those eight times that you were over here | at the Legislature? A—It was, see that court convenes at 9 o'clock. Q—Yes? A—Lots of times if people plead guilty the court will be over in 10 or 15 minutes, sometimes 20 minutes. And they would dispatch a judge on there, and I was | not there two or three times in the day, yes. Q—Who gave you permission to come over here to the Legislature? | A—Why, nobody gave me permis- | sion. Q—You were perfectly free, then after vou reported to the court, to go any place about the city of In- | dianapolis that you want to? A— | Well, yes, that is on investigations, but I was not on an investigation here. Q—What I am getting at, who knew that you were over here? A— In official capacity, you mean? Q—Yes? A—Why, nobody. Q—What would they have done if they wanted you at Criminal Court? A—They knew where I was. I told them if anybody wanted me. I would always tell the balifT. " Q@—Anyone send vou over here? A—No, sir. Q--You were over here lobbving for the policemen’s bills? A—Oh, I | wouldn't say lobbying. Q—I mean you were interested in them? A—Yes, I was interested in it. Q—At whose direction did you | come here? A-—No one. Q—You say you know Peter Can- | jcilla? A—VYes, sir. Q—He has cases in and about the | Criminal Court? A-—He has had, | yes. Q—You investigate cases in which he was interested? A—No. I haven't. Q—Never have? A—No, sir, can't say that I have. { Q—You on duty at the Criminal | Court when Joel Baker was proba- | {tion officer? A-—Yes, sir. OQ—Joel Baker in and about the { Criminal Court prior to this assault {on Wayne Coy? A—I haven't seen | | Joel Baker in three months until | the day I met him over by the shoe- | shining stand. | Q@—When did you see him last time before this incident when | you met him at the shoe-shining | | place? A—Oh, it was way about | before Christmas, long before Christmas. Q—Where was Democratic Club, Q-—Peter Cancilla there at that A—No, he was eating at the

the |

it? A—At the

Q—Did you talk to him then? A— | what investigations do you make? |

No, sir, he come up and talked to us. | Q—Did you say anything to him? | A—No, sir, he said it first to us. Q—What did he say? A—John

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| to your story, or to the case that | is tried in court? | the evidence as it comes off the] | witness stand.

in the case?

| we have witnesses and we know he | or she knows about the case, then

| to do

them without a jury, does he listen say I knew him when he was in the |

A—He listens to |

Q—These people that you talk to, | are they people who are witnesses A—Witnesses. Q-—Some who are not witnesses A—Oh, no, they are suspected of being witnesses. Don’t talk to any-

| body that is not a witness.

Q—Well, you talk to people that | are not called as witnesses? A— | Yes, if somebody is arrested and |

‘and report to the court, and the

court makes investigations on the | evidence, and it is decided on your | report and Dugan's report and the | evidence in the case? A—On the |

Prosecuting Atterney’s evidence. Q—You ever recommend men to | be admitted to parole? A-—Never. Q—You ever recommend that | men be, that their sentences be

| suspended? A—Never; I never in-| | terceded for

nobody in behalf of Judge Baker in the years I was | with him. Never did. I don’t believe it would do any good anyway. Q-—-Who did you come over to the court with today? A—Over here? | Q—Yes? A—Me and Mr. Dugan. |

Q—You were in the hall prior to | this hearing, discussing what you | were going to testify to in this case? A—No, sir, no, sir. We just came up there; was several around, | was not no discussion of the case. | Q—You have talked to nobody | regarding what you should testify | to in this case? No, sir. Q—Mr. Dugan. A—Dalton. Q—Dalton, pardon me. On Mon- | day a week ago what was your rank? A—You mean last Monday? Q—Yes, was your rank first grade | detective? A—Generally, you call them Detective Sergeants. Q—And vou had been assigned to the Criminal Court how many

ond or third of this past January, | oh, just a couple of days after Judge Baker took office this first |

| time.

Q—You commenced your duties

at that time and continued on? | A—Yes, sir. Q—And how were these appoint- | stand between the House and the |i. 7j.eooe ments made over at the Criminal Senate here in this building, was | : there any conversation about Sena- |

know story

me off my feet when I read it. { Q—And about the time you were | demoted, or whatever you might |

| in before the Safety Board, or just | before the Chief?

A—The Chief.

| You see how it is, the Chief de- | | motes you. ? |

Q—1 see, that is in the power of the Chief to demote you. Any appeal from that action to the In-

| dianapolis Police Department? A— |

There is an appeal to the Safety | Board. | Q—And have you taken such appeal? A-—Not vet, Q—How long a time do you have | that? A—Ten days. { Q--And so far as you know, there | was no reason in the world for | Senator Cleary to make a misstate- |

| ment to the press or Chief, or any- | body else? A—Well, he surely made

| swear to that, |

| Sexton

City Hall.

Q—Why, prior to this conversation you and Cleary had on Mon-

day last—this was in reference to!

your Police Bill, one of the several Police Bills that affected the Indi-

9 | anapolis Department, you had some | | words out there with Jake Sexton, | Senator Cleary, Senator Sexton and

didn’t you? A—No, I wouldn't say words, me and Jake Sexton are personal friends, visit each other's homes and everything. Q—Didn’t you give him a cussing out there? A-—Never cursed him

| once, and Mr. Sexton will tell you, |

never cursed him once. Q—Make any threats if. he. didn’t. do. things? A-—No, sir, no, sir. Q—You remember the date that

towards certain

| you had the conversation with Sex- |

ton? A—No, I couldn’t say. Q—Well, it was prior to last Monday? A—Oh, yes, prior to that, some day last week. Q—And that was up here around the stand some place, or close to the Senate Chamber? A-—That was

right as you go into the Senate |

Chamber, around that telephone, right this side of it, towards the door. Q—Did you say these words, or these words in substance, to Senator Sexton, “If he did not

litically”? A—No, how could I get him knocked off politically? Q—If Senator Sexton so testified

before this committee, was he tell- jy

ing the truth, or untruth? A—I'll tell what I said. Q—I want to ask you, was he telling a truth or untruth? A—If you will let me explain. Q—You answer, and then you explain. A—If he said politically, it is an untruth. Q—Any explanation you want te make? A—I1 said, “Joe,” I says I have: known Joe Sexton, Senator

Sexton, since he has been a boy;

been at his home and we are personal friends. 1 said to him, I said “Joe, there is, I'll say 1200 or 1300 hundred police and firemen’s families in the city of Indianapolis, and I said “You know I'll say you know two-thirds of the police, and I'll say half of the fire department,”

land I said “They can either do you | good or harm you politically,” and | 'I never said a word about killing | { him politically; never said a word | | years? A—Six years, about the sec- |

about this. Said they are all for this bill, practically all of them,” and

| he said “I am against the principles | An:

of the bill. Q—1I have got one other question,

| Mr. Dalton; at the same time you |

had this conversation with Cleary on Monday afternoon out near the

tor Sexton at that time? A—Not a word about Senator Sexten, only what I tell you. I believe two seconds will cover it. Q-To refresh your recollection I will ask you if something was not said like this—if you did not say to Senator Cleary, referring to Senator Joseph Sexton, this conversation wherein you called him a cross back so-and-so? A—Who called who? Q—I am asking you? A—I1 never used the word “crossback” in my life, because I am a “crossback” myself. Q—I will ask you if at that time Cleary did not tell you he resented

that | that because he was a great friend | A__1 could not say. Senator Cleary is reported to have | of Senator Sexton? A—That is the ;; given the Safety Board and Mike first time I have heard that word | 4 Morrissey? A—Like to have knocked | since the Klan. They used to call|

us “Crosbacks” and “Bead Rat-

tlers.”

Q—If testified

Senator Clary

Baker? A—Judge Frank P. Baker? Q—No, Joel Baker? A—Oh, Joel Baker. He was, I knew him by

| going to the City Hall. I think he was either City Purchasing Agent | or worked in the City Purchasing is the first

Agent’s office. That time I believe I ever met him.

Q—Since he became Public Wel- | Marion | County has your associations been |

fare Director here in

casual or have they been intimate? A—I was in his place once since he has been in there. Q—And have you

met him

legislation? A—Never talked one

watch his | | step, he would get knocked off po-

come over sometimes by myself and | don’t get no hearing, just send you | which

me.

| sometimes Mr. Dugan would be with | a letter. Q—What was in that letter? A—

perpetuated | Chief of Police Morrissey in office, | weren't you? A—Nof so much, I

Q—Did you come over with any- I could not exactly tell the whole | said I didn’t think well of the hill,

| body else? A—Not a soul.

| these bills you were interested in? | A—~Who all did I see? Q—Yes. A—I was talking to I talked to Senator White. Well, he came up to me and talked to | me about it, me and Dugan. And I talked to Bess Robbins and Char- | lie Lutz over in the House. | Q—Anybody else? A—No, sir. Q—How many times did you see | Senator Cleary about the bills? A | —The one time. Q—Just once? A—And he said he was always for the police and firemen. Q—Did you know Peter Cancilla? { A—I knew him for the first time (not until he came into Criminal { Court. Q—Not until he came into Crim- | inal Court. Did you know he was {acling as a body guard for Joel | Baker? A—Never. Q—Did you mean he was not or | did you mean you did not know it? | A—1I did not know it. .

Q—Did you know he went around |

that every day there was 25 to 50 | firemen here and police from all | over the state and Senator Sexton |

| just told me he has 50 police approach him every day. Call him in | the middle of the street as he goes | down the street, traffic men, per- | haps every policeman in the city. | Q-—Are you an officer in any po- | lice organization, that is, fraternal | organization? A-No., sir. ... ... | Q—You were not sent over here | by any organization to speak for [the bill? A--No, sir. Q—Was any one else sent over? | A—If TI ain't mistaken, George | Hubbard and Harry Irick, but I | think Harry Irick took sick, if I | ain’t mistaken. Q—Were they the official representatives of the organization? A— Official representatives, Q—And you came over fo lend what weight you had? A—What | assistance I could lend to them. | Q—In an unofficial capacity? In an unofficial capacity. Q—What other sessions of Legisture did you attend in the past {in the interest of any legislation? { Not the first time I

| [la

| A—First time. | have been around but I mean in anything. Q—I will ask you this, Mr. Dal- | ton, whether or not it is not the fact | that you telephoned to Senator Cleary after this conversation you { had and after this occurrence on Monday and apologized to him? A— | No, sir. No apology. I had nothing | to apologize for. I will tell you | what—I telephoned him. I said, | “Senator, I have read in the paper,” I said “you got up in the Senate and | said I made the remark that you | had better watch your step going | between the House and Senate. | That is a lie. You know I never said that.” There was no apology at all.

I never had nothing to apologize |

! for. Q—When was that conversation? It was the day came out in the paper, when I d it in the paper. Q—Where did you call from? | My home. | Q-—Have you been over here in | the State House since this occurence? A—Since the fight? Q—Yes. A—Since he had-—no, sir, Chief Morrisey called me and told me to stay away from here. Q—Did he know you were here before that time? A-—I guess he did. He told me he did, yes. Q—Chief Police told you he knew you were over here? A-—Yes. He never told me he knew it. He just said I knew you were there because I was told. Q—You never asked him for permission to come? A-—No, sir. Q—Now ih this telephone conversation with Senator Cleary after you stated to him that this statement that he made on the floor of the

Ame

A—-I

Q—You say, then, that you did | word about legislation with him. |

told to you, that Senator |

that paper where he said, the paper |

| said that Mr. Dugan and I came |

up to him. Well, Mr. Dugan and I | were standing at the west end of |

'the lunch counter and Mr. Cleary |

came up to us and he was coming | in the House, and that is when he |

|said it was a damn shame about |

that fellow hitting Coy, and that is | where I made the remark that I | heard he got hit before in the Democratic convention, and I walked right in the Senate. I don't believe | it was two seconds. Q—And you didn’t refer to Coy, and use profanity in talking about him? A—I wouldn't know Mr. Coy

if he would walk in this room; |

‘not say anything that you read, or | Never talked one word. In fact, I|

only seen him once in the last three |

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A OOO

thing. It was for conduct unbe-

Q—Who all did you see about | coming an officer.

Q—Did you make any protest to the Chief of Police for your demotion? A-—I did not. There was no protest to make. I was over here and that was against his wishes so there was no protest I could make. Q—You made the statement he knew you was over here? A—No, sir, oh, no, I did not. I never said— Q—Didn’t you say just a few minutes ago that the Chief of Police stated that he knew you were over here in the State House? A—That he heard I was over here, yes. Not that he sent me over. Q—No, but the question was whether or not you stated a few moments ago that the Chief of Police made the statement that he knew that you had been over here in the State House. A—Before 1 got the letter of demotion. You understand I was called in. called in on the demotion. I was called in the morning before to talk to him. That is when he told me he says, “I heard about you being over here.” I was in the morning prior to the afternoon of the following day that I got the demotion. That is when he told me. Q—In other words you wish now to state that the Chief of Police did not know at any time that you were over here? A-—No, he told me when he had me in his office. *I hear you have been over at the Legislature.” Q—Did he give you permission?

| A—No, sir, he did not.

Q—Is that reason you wish to convey for your demotion? A— That is the only reason I can figure. Q—Now, there were other police over here from time to time in the interest of legislation, weren't there and haven't there been? .. A—Oh, yes, I have seen, well I will take it

back. .I have not seen the police, |

that is, this time. .I have seen po-

lice from other cities but I have seen |

25 and 30 firemen every day, that I was here. Q—You have seen Mr. Dugan over here? A—Mr. Dugan was here with me. Q—Was he demoted too? No he was not demoted. He was out of the Prosecutor's office, brought back to the detectives’ office. Q—Now, Mr. Dalton, if you were demoted on the assigned reason, for conduct unbecoming an officer, certainly that same conduct would be unbecoming to Mr. Dugan. A— Not in the same sense of the word. It is Mr. Cleary’s statements in the papers that I was practically knocked over about. Q—Then the reason for the demotion was the statement by Cleary in the paper. A—Yes, absolutely. Q—In response to that, Mr. Dalton, you made no protest of your innocence to Chief Morrissey. A— I told him I had never said the

I was not |

A— |

| Not that my one voice would help | any or harm any. Q—You discussed that bill Senator Cleary, didn't you. Just once I asked him. Q—In that conversation didn’t | you say if that bill was passed you | never would get rid of Chief Mor~ rissey. A—No, sir, I never did use that language. I said I didn’t believe in a man having a lifetime job. I said a man goes on the Police Department, I said that is trying to get as high as he can { get. | Q—Where is Mr. Baker now? A— | Which Baker? Q—Joel Baker? A-~I have no idea. Don’t know about him. Q—Has your department any attempt to locate him? jean’t tell you. | Q-=—You are investigator for the aren't you? A—e

with A

made A—I

| Criminal Court,

{ Not no more.

Q—Have there Leen attempts made or officers assigned to attempt to locate him? A-—I can't tell you.

Q—Do you know whether there have been attempts made to locate Cancilla? .A—I can't tell you, I don't know only what I read in the papers. Q—If you met him would yon arrest him? A-—We would arrest him as quickly as anybody else. Q—Yog@ have a warrant for his arrest? A—I haven’t, no. I hear there are warrants out, I haven't them, When we know other officers have a warrant for an are rest, we can pick up a man on that warrant. Q—Do you have any idea where Cancilla is? A—I have not. Q—Did you see Cancilla on the (Turn to Page Five)

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