Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 8 March 1937 — Page 2

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Today’s Verbatim Testimony of Mystery Girl and Rep. Ropkey

"about the bill? A—No.

, like to come over.

* talked to Mr. Baker?

* Mr. Baker when Mr, Coy was hit?

_ was taking place?

"they came to the hotel?

_ call me. - he was excited and didn't know

ANDAN. MARCH. 8. 1087...

THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES

Alay

MONDAY, MARCH 8, 1937

(Continued from Page One) him there a while about the bill?

_ A—That is right.

Q—Had you been over to see | Q—-What was your purpose in coming to the State House? A—I I come over every | Legislature to listen to them. Q—You didn't talk to anybody about the bill that morning? A—No,

I did not. Q-—Now, you went down just as

* he came up here, you went down on |

the elevator, did you? A—No, I

Mr. Cancilla walked on and we were | standing there talking to and he said he was going to see Mr. Town- | send and ask for a public hearing and said the bill had some good | points, I didn't know what he meant. | He said of course there were some! things that he felt should have some | amendments | Q—What I want to know is, Miss Farran, what you did after you A—At that time was when Mr. Coy was hit, Q—That is, you were talking to

A-That is right. | Q—Now, how long after those men got on the elevator until Mr. Coy was hit? A-—I never noticed. Mr, | Cancilla walked away. I was stand- | ing talking te Mr. Baker, then somebody screamed, and I said, “That | sounds like a woman,” and somebody around there said a woman fell ! and broke her nose, and we never | Paid any more attention te it, and stood there and talked a longer. Q—Did Cancilla No, I haven't seen him didn't know for 10 or 15 afterward what happened. Q—Where did Baker go? A—He walked away. He must have stood there five minutes after that hap-

while |

come up? A-— since. 1} minutes

pened.

Q—You talking to him? A-—Yes. | Q-—-Right at the time this attack | A—Yes, { five mintaken

that

were

Q—He talked to you utes after the attack had place. A—Must have been long. Q—Well, where did you go then? A—I went back to the hotel. Q—How long was it after Mr. Baker left that you went back to! the hotel? A—I could not say. Q—You what? A—I could not say just how long it was. Q—Can you give us some idea? A—Must have been 15 minutes. I | roamed around fo see what happened. Q—When you got back to the hotel, did you see Mr. Baker? A— No, I did not. Q—0Or Cancilla? A-—I did not. Q—Do you know whether or not A-—No, I don’t. Q—Did you talk to anybody after you got back to the Harrison Hotel? | A—Mr. Downey called me. | Q—Downey? A—Yes. Q—What did he say to you? A-! Asked me if I knew where Mr. Baker was. I said, “I don’t know where he is. You have no right to I don’t know you.” I guess

what he was doing. | Q—What time did he call you? A—Must have been half an hour after I was over there. Q—How long did you remain at the Harrison? A-—I checked out that afternoon. Q—What time? A-—Must been around 4 o'clock. Q—You went to rooming place? A-—-Yes, sir. Q—Did you talk to Joel Baker | over the telephone or personally that evening. A-—No, I did not I haven't talked to Mi. Baker since I} was over in the lobby here. A--Have you seen Joel Baker | since you were over here in lobby? A-—No, sir, I haven't. | Q—Have you seen Peter Cancilla | since you saw him here in the! lobby? A--No, sir, I haven't, Q—Did you talk to Joel Baker before he came over to the State! House on the morning of March 1, 1937. A-No, sir, I did not. Q-—How long has it been since you | have been employed? A-—Since the first of January. Q-—Since Jan, Jan. 1 Q—How many time since January first have you seen Mr. Joel Baker? AI could not say. Q—Approximately how many times? A-—That would be hard to! say. Q—Do you recall the time Mr. Baker called you from the Clay- | pool Hotel? A-Y do not. Q—When he was in company with Cancilla and Mr. Downey? A~I do not. Q—What was the last time vou saw Mr. Baker, prior to the first! day of March? A-—I couldn't say.' Q—Approximately how long? A— 1 would not know. | Q—The night before, Sunday night? A=No, I don't think I could say. Q—Saturday night, did vou see him Saturday? A—I imagine I saw! him, I don’t know, ber. Q—Was he with Pete Cancilla at | that time? A-—I don't remember. Q—Now, as a matter of fact, Miss | Farran, this House Senate Bill 173 | was discussed in your presence by both Pete Cancilla and Joel Baker? AI didn’t even know the House Bill number. Q—You knew the bill as the Welfare Bill? A—Yes, I did. |

have

your regular |

1st? A—Since |

I don't remem- |

| | |

. Q—It was discussed before you by | both Pete Cancilla and Joel Baker? | A—I never heard Mr. Cancilla say |

‘anything about it. I never talked to |

him. Q-—It was discussed by you and | Joel Baker? A—It wasn't actually discussed. He was telling me what he thought about it. He thought it | had some good points. Q—You knew what was in the bill so you told him what you thought? A-~That is right. I ‘yead what was in the papers, 1 ‘guess you can’t believe everything that is in the papers. . Q—It was discussed. You talked about it to Joel Baker and Joel Baker talked about this Welfare Bill to you? A-Yes, that one time, ; Q—What interest did you have | ‘in this bill? A—No particular in‘terest at all, but I don’t know, I called on those old people myself, | ‘Y¥ know how they feel about it. They like somebody to come and’ see them that is human and knows what a dollar means instead of ‘somebody that has had their ex"penses paid through college. > Q@=Xou were

>. Sg 1-0

| torial body like the Grand Jury,

| sented, and I think she has a right

{ of representation under the Consti- | tution,

| talked to Joel Baker here

at the elevator, where did he go? | A—I couldn't say.

| going? [9 or 10 minutes after that, I don't : know where he went. !

imagine he did after what happened.

| if Joel Baker had been there? A—}

| again? happened,

{ did not.

Harrison, I will buy you a drink.” | Baker? Q—Nor have you heard from him |

{is that true? A—I said,

the |’

| Governor's office?

| the 1935 session, down to March 1,!

| business? | Board of Agriculture,

| ested in that Joel Baker was interested in? | know when it was.

| couple of months.

| Baker in the Welfare Department? |

| Baker say to you that morning

from | pass an

Welfare | have to be college graduates and | major in sociology to hold the posiQ—For what reason? A=That tion, and I didn’t think they were was for personal reasons. | the right type of people to call on Q—What were the reasons that old people and widows with children, you resigned? A—I just resigned. Q—Well, indirectly then, that : Q—You haven't worked since meant—A—That was my idea. Jan. 1.2 A-No, sir, I haven't, Q—That meant that the people in Q—Who paid your hotel bill at the Marion County Welfare Departthe Harrison? A—I paid my own. ment were not qualified if those YeQ—Where did you get the money? Qiiirements were made? A--Oh, no, A~I had money of my own, | not everyone. Q—Where did you got 112 A=] | ta iany of them? i 3 vork all m life. | » YES. Hig = — keh om BY Q—What particular qualifications since January first. A—I have did you have that got you your apworked since I was 16 years old. | Pointment as Investigator on oldMr. Barrett objected, | age assistance? A-—My work was MR. BEDWELL: Mr. Barrett, you | RO Ia whauk ameticalive misunderstand this brocequre. This qualifi cations you had, if any? A= is not a trial, no criminal proceed- | I guess it was my personality. ings, no charges at all. You can't Q—And that attracted Mr. Baker, oven lake ah exveption, [isn’t that the fact? A—No, it isn't MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, the fact. Attracted old people. I would like to make this state-| Q-—Oh, I see, Mr. Baker had no ment: May I do that? I under- | personal attraction to you, isn’t that stand this is an inquisition, of | true? A—I couldn't say. course, and also I am familiar with | Q—You couldn't say. the rule of inquisition and I am | Baker sober or intoxicated?

the Marion County Board? A-—I resigned.

A-Many of

Was Mr. A—~I

| familiar with the rule of law that | never saw him intoxicated in my |

life. Q—You never saw him intoxicated in your life? Had he been constitutional rights of waiver, and | drinking that morning? A--I their testimony may be used against | couldn't notice it. them, and I submit Mr. Chairman, | Q-If you knew that the evidence even though this is an inquisitorial | here was that before coming to the body you men are lawyers, you State House that morning he had should submit yourselves and make | had three straight drinks of rye your examination on the subject | whisky in the Harrison Tap Room,

anybody can go before an inquisi-

and if they do not object to this

that is at hand, and not go beyond | within a few minutes from the time |

that line of examination. I think

: : that you saw him, would this lady has a right to be repre-

‘change your testimony on that | spect? A--No, I would not. Q—You didn’t think he had been drinking? A—No, I didn't. Q—How about Pete Cancilla? A—I wouldn't say. I don't know. Q—Did you say anything to Pete Cancilla? A—No, I didn't. Q-—That morning? A-—No. Q—When you stopped to talk to Joel, ddi Pete go right on? Yes, he did. Q—Which way did he go from the elevator? A—I couldn't say.

you re-

to refuse answers that does not pertain to anything pertinent to this examination. I have a right

Q—Now, Miss Farran, after you |

in the State House, on Monday, March 1st,

Q—Did he tell you where he was A—I missed him just about

Q-—Do you know whether he went | COV Was attacked, or from the point to the Governor? A—No, I don't | from which you heard the screams, | what direction did Pete Cancilla Q—You left here and went to the | go? " Harrison Hotel. didn’t you? A—VYes, | A—T couldn't say. I never noticed 1 did. which way he did go. Q—You went into the tap room? | Q--Well, after Joel Baker left A=No. 1 did not. {you, which way did he go? A—I Q—You inquired at the tap room couldn't say, because I walked over | to see what was going on, | Q—Did he go with you? the did not. | Q—Did he go down on the elethers, [ror A—I couldn't say. oo . . { —Did you see him around there Q—Yeu inquired of some em- ‘any more? A—No, I didn't,

ployees of the Harrison Hotel tap | , reem if Mr. Baker had been in! ind You Were around here for there? A—I went through on the Lc aps oF 25 minutes? A--

wih : . : | That's right. way to my room and asked if Mr, | Q—After the attack?

Baker had been in. I missed him, _ you see, i right, Q—Why were you looking for him ti Q-~When, after that, A—I wanted to know what | “me, did you make the Joel Baker as to what Q-—Did you think that Mr. Baker °Ver here? was connected with it? A—No, | him. | Q—Now, Miss Farran, ‘positive about that? talked to Mr. Baker.

did. Q—You went from here?

A-No, te the tap room A—1 went through

A—That's

if at any report to happened A—I didn't talk to

you are A—I haven't I didn’t know

Q—Why would you think that he knew anything about what hap- | : pened? A-—All right, I went over 20Vthing about this. because he said he would meet me Q—After the attack on Wayne and buy me a drink. Was there | Coy, you checked out of the Har. anything wrong with that? rison Hotel, where did you go then? Q—That is what 1 wanted to A=! went home. know. You made an appointment to meet Mr. Baker at the Harrison Hotel? A-—Not an appointment. He said “after they adjourned if! you are around, come over to the

cation by telephone or otherwise | with Joel Baker? A-I have not. | Q=Or with any one who might be speaking on behalf of Joel A—I have not. He was gone, and I went over there. | ‘ Q—And inquired for Mr. Baker, | Since? “Has Mr. Q—Directly or Baker been in?” | No, sir, Q—During the 1936 session of the] Q—As a matter of fact, every job

A—No, sir.

indirectly? A

| : > . | wer > oy 9 Legislature you were employed here YOU have held, including the job in| Were You down there?

in the State House, weren't you? the Auditor's office, the State Board A—"35. Q-—Thirty-five session? A—Yes, | Welfare Department, you got at the : | insistence and request of Joel A. Q—Employed by the Department | Baker? A—And also my father. of Agriculture? A-—Yes, sir. | Q—Worked in the Lieutenant-|—No, I say at the insistence of my A—Yes, sir. { father. Q—Who got you that job? Ae Q—Is any other member of your Dick Heller. | family employed In political posiQ—Recommended, too, by Mr. Ba- | tions? A—7 should say not. ker, weren't you? A-—Yes, sir. | Q—Is your father a politician Q—1Is that true? A-Yes, sir. {around here? A-—No, he is not, not Q—As a matter of fact, since around here. Q—Where does he live? 193%, you have been rather closely { derson, Ind. associated on political and legisla- | Q-—Did he recommend you to Mr, tive business with Mr. Joel Baker? Baker? A—Not particularly. A—Not legislative because I don't Q—When did you first get acknow anything about it. quainted with Joel Baker? A—I Q—Well, you were interested in| couldn't say. the 1935 session in the legislative | Q—Well, approximately A—I worked with the A—I could not say. Q—Was it in 1935? A—I wouldn't know just when it was, pending legislation then Q—Was it in 1934? A—I don’t

A—An-

when? Q—I know, but you were inter-

A—=Why, naturally I would want Q—Well, you do know when it was

| him to get what he was working | but you won't tell us—when was

for. I didn't know what he was it? A—I said I don't know. working for. | Q—Was it one year ago? A—1 Q—You were interested in the don't know. success of what he was laboring for? | Q—Was it two years ago? A—I A—I naturally would be, in friends, | Said that I don’t know. I don't reQ—That is what you were over member, here for? A-—No, it isn't. Q—Well, T know that you do Q-—That is one of the reasons? A know? A—Well, you know more —No, I wanted a job. | than I do. Q—How long after the 1935 ses-| Q—I am insisting on an answer,

Sion of the Legislature did you keep | When did you first get acquainted

vour job? A—Must have been ga With Joel Baker? A—I don’t know. | Q=And that is the way you want Q—Then where did you go? Ane) it to stand? A—That's right. Auditor's office, Marion County Au-| Q Where is Joel Baker now? A ditor’s office. y —I couldn't tell you. Q—And you worked there how | Q—Now, you have known him for long? A—A year and a half. | Several years? A—So have other Q—Until 19362 A—That's right. PeOPIe. . Q—How soon after the Marion |, © 1 Said you have known him County Welfare Board was organ- | ox Sere ya that's right, isn't ized did ye : | it? —I don’t know how long I ize id you go to work for Mr. have known him. A —Well, you knew him back i A—It has been about three months. Q rts er nm eM Q—And you worked there until | is SeNeion, din you? A~-Yey,

You Wn Thats HE. A! . @=You knew him before that? —An hat was Jan. 1? A , ) : That's right. | A Laur low how hog: A 1 : 7 : A i : J reQ—Now, again, just what did Mr. quently? A—T imagine so. Q—You talked to him over here in the lobby of the hotel, I mean lobby of the State House? A—Yes, sir. Q—And he was to bu ou: drink? A-—Strike that rid JOU 0 Q—Well, you had an appointment to go over there and he was to buy you a drink, after the legislation was over, and yet you have never made any inquiry or tried to find out where he is? A—No, I can have a drink with anybody. Q—But you never tried to locate Mr. Baker since then? A—No, sir. Q—Never asked any of his friends where he is? A-No, sir. Q—None of your mutual friends have ever told you where he is? A

about Senate Bill 173? A-—He didn't say anything about Senate Bill 173. Q—About pending welfare legislation? A-—He said “I think maybe I'll see Mr. Townsend about this.” Said "It has some good points, but still I think it should have some amendments, and I think I'll go down and talk to him.” Q—What amendments did he refer to, if you know? A—I don’t know. Q—You know though as a matter of fact, what amendments they were? A—No, I did not know. Q—Well, you testified here that you knew that it meant the loss of | jobs over at the County Welfare Department, if the bill went through as it was? A-~I didn't say that. pos Q—Yes, you said you didn’t want | ~No, sir, I am not interested. to see your friends out of jobs over | Q=~Are you a stenographer? there? A—I didn’t. No. I am not. Q-—Well, what did you say? A—I Q—You don't do stenographic

said that the people would have a) wake A—No, I haven't for years,

that

gets Se r Bg be ik ass

Bo }

Q—With respect to where Wayne |

Q-—-Did you have any communi. |

| of Agriculture and Marion County |

Q—And your father got a job? A

| Welfare Bill over for you to copy? A—No, he did not. | Q=—When he brought the bill ‘over, you talked about it? A—I didn't see the bill. Q—How did you know what provisions were in it? A-—I read about it in the paper. Q—What did you read in the [paper about it? A-—That they | would have to pass an examination, | Q—You never talked about the | bill with Mr. Baker previous to that day? A-—No, sir, 1 did not know anything about it. Q-—What elevator did you meet him by? A--East side. Q—He just got off the elevator as you went down? A-—As I went down,

i {

| Q—Did you have an appoint- |

K—When did they discuss the | not |

bill in the Senate? know when it was. Q—Did you tell Mr, Baker what they said about the bill? A—I1 asked=—1 don't know what I did say, Q—What? A-—-I do not know. Q—Did you ever teil him what |they sald in the Senate about the ‘bill? A-I could not tell any one, | Q-—As a matter of fact, you were over here when the House passed the new Welfare Bill? A-—Yes, I | was,

A—I do

{went over to the Senate and { watched when they passed it? A— | Like every one else did. | —No, I did not, Q—Who did you tell about it? A {=I did not tell any one. | Q-You live out here in town; why

| were you so interested in that bili? |

| A=IJ told you the reason, I felt | sorry for the old people. Q—That was your only interest in | the bili? A—That is right. | Q—Why were you so interested in {this 463, the second bill, Welfare | Bill, why were you so interested in (that? A—I was not any more interested in that than anything else. {I have been over here listening | every day. | Q=Listening to that bill? | Listening to all the bills, Pari-Mu-tuel and everything. | Q-—You were interested in that bill more than anything else? A— Not particularly. | Q=You have been over here lis- | tening how long? A—I don’t know. | Q—Just your sympathy for the old people, is the only reason? A— Yes. Q—You live here in town? A— | Yes. Q—What was the occasion of | your taking a hotel room over at {the Harrison? A-—-My lights were | turned off. I neglected to pay them. I could not get them turned on | over the week-end. Q—Your electric lights were | turned off and so you came down and took a hotel apartment for the | week-end? A-—Yes, | Q=How many days and nights A—I don't (know. Must have been, it was Saturday and Sunday and I went home Monday. Q—It was Wednesday night that Mr. Downey was in the room when | Mr. Baker called you at the Harrison? A—Mr. Baker never called | me, | Q—Didn’t we have testimony here | that Mr. Baker called you in Dow- | ney’s presence and that is how he | happened to call you when he was | trying to locate Mr. Downey. Is | Mr. Downey mistaken about that? | A—He must be, | Q—Now when you talked to Mr. Baker about this bill how long did you talk to him? A—Well it must

| have been about five or 10 minutes |

| there. | Q—Five or 10 minutes? Just tell | us what all was said about that bill. | A—I told you, Q—That you just were sorry for the old people? A—That is right. | Q—And the bill had some good | points? A—Yes. | Q-—But you wanted to take care | of the fact so they would not have | trained workers in the department? A—Workers would not be trained only through college. Q—That was your objection to the | bill? A—That is right, | Q—Now that bill did not provide | that Miss Farran. A—I understood | it through the papers. I guess I do not know anything about it, Q—What papers said that? TI do not know, | Q—That bill did not contain any | Provision that you had to be a college graduate and study sociology | to be a welfare worker, A—That is | how much I know about it, Q--You have been over here | watching things. You know, as a | matter of fact, the bill was passed | specifically not providing that? A { I did not know that, Q—How could you be over here (and miss that bill and know SO | much about this Welfare Bill? A—. | Yoat other bill do you mean? | Q—This other bill permitted the | Trustee to hire certain people, set{ting down the qualifications of the ' people they hired? A—I do not {know. I was not interested in the | Trustees. I did not know what | they did. | Q—You did not care much about | these poor people, just the old peo- | ple you cared about? A—I did not Fwd they had that kind of a bill |

through the Trustees. Q—AIll right you stood there and talked to him about five minutes |and I understood during this time | Cancilla attack Wayne Coy. Is that (right? A—I do not know. Wayne | Coy was hit. | Q—When did you find out that | Cancilla attacked Wayne Coy. A— I heard somebody talking and they | said Cancilla hit Mr. Coy and that was about ten minutes after it happened. The first thing I heard was | that a woman fell down and hurt her nose. | Q—Did you see Mr. Coy? A~—No, | I did not. I saw him walk out. Q—You became excited, didn't you? A-No, I was not excited,

{ Mos

A—No, sir, I did not know |

Q—You were over here when they | | passed it in the House and then you |

A |

| Q—If they tell us that you came

into the Harrison Tap Room very much excited were they mistaken? A~They are mistaken. I do not get | excited, | Q—You did rush over to the Harrison Tap Room? A--I did not rush over. I went through up to my room. | Q=-Why did you go looking for Mr. Baker when you heard Cancilla attack Mr. Coy? A-—I wanted to Know what it was all about. Q-—-Why did you want to ask Mr. | Baker? A-—The same as I would | ask anybody. I did not look tor | him to ask about Cancilla hitting Mr. Coy. | Q—Why did you go and lock for Mr. Baker when you heard Cancilla | hit Wayne Coy? A--I was not looking for him particularly. I went through the Harrison Tap Room | and I asked if he had been in and I went on. Q-—Did you ask for anybody else? | A—No, I did not. Q—Why Mr. Baker? A—That was personal.

| |

Q—Miss Farran, let me ask you | this question—On Tuesday morning, March 2, following the attack (on Wayne Coy on March 1, why did you call the State Welfare Departjment? A—I did not call the State | Welfare Department,

Q—Did you call the County Welfare Department? A--No, sir, I did | not,

Q—Why did you call Mr. Baker's | office that next morning? A—I did [not call, | Q-—On Tuesday, March 2, you did not call Mr, Baker's office? A—No, | sir, I did not. Q—I1f you were not interested in ‘the whereabouts of Joel Baker why | did you call the Indianapolis Star office twice on Tuesday morning? | A=I have a girl friend working there,

Q—And inquired about Joel | Baker, anything about his where- | abouts? A—Oh, no, I did not.

| Q—You tell this Committee that

| |

you did not call the Star office? A—

| Q=What do you mean by that? | I did not.

(Witness failed to answer.) | A—What do you mean by that? A—The reason I was looking for Mr. Baker. | Q=What do you mean—it was | personal—you were looking for him | on that? A—Oh my. MR. BARRETT: witness) —Mr, Chairman, I would like, with your permission to in-

any matter. this was with reference to Bill 173 or anything with reference to that subject that this body may inquire { about. The witness has answered | repeatedly and answered repeatedly { these questions and I submit, as lawyers— REP. ANDREW-—Mr. Chairman, I ask that if Mr, Barrett is going to persist in being present that he be instructed not to take any part in these proceedings. MR. BARRETT-I think, I, as lawyer, have a right to represent a client before this Commission. REP. ANDREW-—-You have no

(not a court. This is an investigation. We are not trying matters (under formal rules of evidence, | where the court may rule on ex-

{do not think you have any right

(Attorney for |

‘him? | him, | Q—You did not see him up on the {second floor, outside the elevator, or

2 around any place?

ceptions and things of that sort. I! roamed around to find out what

Q—Did you call the Star office?

| A=I called. the Star office, Q—Twice on Tuesday morning? | A=I do not know how many times. | I have a girl friend working in the classified department there. Q—Did you call there twice or not? A—I probably did.

Q-—Did you inquire about Joel

| Baker or his whereabouts? A—I did

| struct this witness that she does | hot.

{ not have to answer those questions |

seals because they ay 3 9} Deriineut i’ | Monday morning last, over here by

Q—When you met Joel Baker on

| the east elevator, of course the ele- | vator passed up and down several

| times while you and he were stand-

ing there talking, isn’t that right. A | =I imagine so. Q—Did you see Frank P. Baker {that morninng? A--No, sir, 1 did | not. Q—You know him when you see A-—1 know him when I see

A—No, sir, I aid not. Q—When you and Joel left you

[got on an elevator, that is, as it right to represent anybody before |was descending. Is that right? You | this Commission, if I am correct. | rode the elevator down after you Q—You reported to Mr. Baker? A| CHAIRMAN BEDWELL—This is | finished your him? A—No, not right away. I was

{ around here for a while.

conversation with

Q—You stayed on for a while?

| A—Yes.

Q—Where did you go? A--I just

| to question what this Committee | had happened.

|may do, Mr. Barrett, {have that right. Go right ahead

with the examination. Q—Don’'t you want to answer that

with all | | courtesy to you, I do not think you |

Q—Out in the corridor? A—Yes, Q—See anybody you knew or dis-

cuss what had happened with any- | | body? | Q-—Make any inquiry of anybody

A—No, sir.

Q—Just one question—Were you

room? A-No, sir, I was not, Q—And he made a threatened attack upon the officer? A—No, sir. Q—You were not the woman that was present? A-—No.

rented a room over at the Harrison Hotel, Miss Farran? A—Couple of times, I guess. Q—Couple of times, is that all? A—Yes. Q—When was the other occasion | that you ‘rented a room there? A —Do I have to answer that? MR. BARRETT—No, you do not. Q—Just a matter that the hotel record would show. A—J® stayed there a couple of weeks, Q—How long ago was that? Was "it during this session? A-—No, WITNESS EXCUSED,

ERNEST C. ROPKEY

Q-—State your name, C. Ropkey. Q—What official position, if any, do you hold in the General Assembly of Indiana. A-—Representative of Marion County.

Q—Are you acquainted with Joel Baker? A—I am,

Q—Are you acquainted with Martin J. Downey, Representative from Lake County? A--I am. Q—You may state, Mr. Ropkey, if you have seen Joel Baker in conversation with Martin J. Downey at any time during the session. A —I have. Q—When was that? A-—-I don’t recall the date, but it was on the day they had the trouble here with Wayne Coy. I was standing in the extreme north end of the Representatives’ chambers, and I was talking to Joel Baker, and Mr. Downey approached him and was putting a package into his pocket which Joel Baker assisted to place. Q—Putting into whose pocket? Who was putting a package into whose pocket? A—Into Baker's pocket. Do you want my conversation with him? I said, “Why don’t You put a flask in my pocket?” Although I'm a dry, I was just joking. So there were a few more words exchanged—J don’t remember just exactly all of it. Then I left. | After this incident, I said to Mar- | tin, “You put those papers in his | pocket, didn’t you.” He said, “Yes.” | That's the extent of my knowledge of this entire transaction. s Q—Did you recognize what these papers were? A-—After I had read of the occasion, I recalled that I had noticed similar papers come on the Speaker's desk of the House,

question? A—I would rather not. in an effort to find out what had | and recognized the color of the pa-

| it? A—It does not have anything | to do with the matter. | Q—You mean that you thought | Mr. Baker had something to do | with the Peter Cancilla attack on | Mr. Coy and you do not want to tell us about it? A—No, sir. Q—That is not what yoy mean by that? A-No, sir. Q—You knéw that Wayne Coy was very much interested in this Welfare Bill 173? A—No, sir, I did | not. | Q—You knew Peter Cancilla { was? A--No, sir, I did not. Q—You knew that Wayne Coy | was interested in having it enact- | ed? A-—No, sir, I did not know | anything about it. Q--What did Joel Baker say about | Wayne Coy’s activities in trying | to get this bill enacted? A—I never j felssd to Mr. Baker ahout this, {only that one time when I started

| to

get on the elevator and I

stopped and I was talking to him. | Q—Now, you say that you did | not want to answer that for per- ! sonal reasons, now as a matter of fact, you knew Mr. Baker very | well, you knew him well? right? A-~How do you mean that | question? | Q=What? A—How do you mean that question? Q—I mean you knew him well. You knew him for sometime? A— | Yes, I have known Mr. Baker for | some time. Q--And you have seen him frequently? A--Politically. Q—You have never made any effort to get in touch with him since this attack? A-—No, sir. | Q—Or to find out where he is? | A~~No, sir Q—Nor none of your mutual friends have told you where he was? A--No, sir. Q—Did he ever call you at the Harrison Hotel? He knew you were staying there. A—No, sir. Q-—Never telephoned you there? A—No, sir. Q-—NMartin Downey call you there? A—Yes, sir.

locate Mr. Baker? A—Yes, sir. Q-—Now did you have any other interest in coming over here at the

| State House other than as a spec- |

| Was trying to have the bill enacted, |

Is that |

Q—For the purpose of trying to!

Q-—Why don’t you want to answer | happened? A—No, sir, I just heard | pers.

people talking. That is the way | found it out. | Q-—You were here probably how long? A-—I would say 15 minutes. | Q—You took one of the elevators land went down? A—I took the other elevator. Q—And went directly to the Har- | rison Hotel? A-—Yes. | Q-—And was it immediately after you went into the Harrison that | you went into the tap room? A— I went through that way. Q—You went through the Capitol Avenue entrance? A—Yes, sir. Q—-And was there anybody in the taproom besides the employees when you went in? A—I never noticed. Q—They told you that Mr. Baker had been and had gone, is that right? A—They said they had been in there about 45 minutes before and had gone. Q—Didn’t they tell you he had been in a few minutes before that and gone? A-—No, sir. They said about 45 minutes, Q—You say you resigned from the County Welfare Department for personal reasons? A—Yes, sir, Q—You and Mr. Baker were not on hostile terms or anything after that were you? A—No, sir. Q—There wasn't any falling out between you and Mr. Baker that

| caused your resignation over there

was there? A—No, sir. Q—You continued to see him on occasions such as you have described to us, is that right, talked to him whenever you saw him? A— Yes, sir. Q-—How long have you lived in Marion County, Miss Farran? A— About 10 years. Q-—About 10 years? A-—-Yes, sir. Q—You were raised, I suppose in Anderson, Ind? A-—Yes, sir. Q-—Near there? A-—Yes. Q—You say all the positions you have held over here since you have been working have been some jobs of a political nature? A—Oh, no, sir, Just the last—I don't know, I imagine just— Q—Just the last few years at that sort of work? A-—Yes. Q—Prior to your employment in the State Board of Agriculture where did you work? A-—I run an employment office. Q-—That is for yourself? A—I had the vocational department of E. E. | Burns Employment.

| tator? A-—No, sir.

STATEMENT OF ATTORNEY

FRED E. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, I was consulted by Miss Far- | ran late Saturday evening, she hav- | ing noticed in the paper that she | was wanted as a witness in this | hearing, and not having received a | supena, and I immediately called the chairman of this commission and asked permission to represent the young lady as her counsel and as I recall courtesy was extended to me. Before the young lady is sworn, and not having been able to inform myself after such inquiry as I could make with reference to these pro- | ceedings, I would like to, in dune | courtesy to the chairman of the | committee, ask this question first: On behalf of my client and before she testifies I respectfully request to { have read, and to be advised what charges are pending in this matter | now in hearing before you, who filed | such charges and if made under ‘oath; also that if any person ac- | cused of a crime.that that person be designated and also the charge of the crime committed be asserted. Also that if there be any charges, I wish to state, and of which I have

| Legislature, it is necessary that such

such house of which such member is a member of a committee of as a whole. If this inquiry be addressed to the subject of a missing bill, that we be advised as to which bill the inquiry is addressed with reference to, or to its having disappeared, and Boe time and place, for this : Tha funder the rules as set

no knowledge, against any member | of either House or Senate of this

charges be prosecuted in front of |

out there are three bills designated under each number, the rule now is four; They are filed in quadruplicate in either the Hcuse or the Senate, those four bills, all of the same number, are identical, except the covering; and I am informed and I believe that one of the bills is called a master bill, and remains in possession of the clerk, either of House or Senate. One of the bills is released to the public, and goes to the printer, or whoever has charge of furnishing printed bills; one of the bills goes to the journal clerk and one of the bills to a committee, and before my client testifies I think under the Constitution and while it is the law under question, that the legislative acts are supreme, except as to such matters which infringes on any rights in |the Constitution. Now I don't | know whether this inquisition in- | volves my client anywhere, direct'1y or indirectly, I assume not—but before she testifies, and is sworn, I ask that whatever the charge is be read. CHAIRMAN BEDWELL—Let the record show the following: That this is a committee appointed by the General Assembly of the State of Indiana to make investigation | into matters connected with the disappearance of Senate Bill 173 and | any other matter that is inimicable | to the public interest; that no wit‘ness called before this committee has any right to question the power | or authority of the committee, and for that reason, these objections here are overruled. Let the witness be sworn, s

That is, they had approximately the same appearance.

Q—With reference to the package |

| that you saw, was it what we call {a bill? A—It looked to be. It was | a package about the size of the | three bills necessary—the bill and the copies of it, and— Q—You saw Mr. Downey put that in Joel Baker's pocket? A—He started the job and Baker finished it,

Q—That was on Monday, March 1st? A—It was the date of the incident with Mr. Coy.

Q—Mr. Ropkey, did Joel Baker, if I understand you right, did Joel Baker give something to Martin Downey? A—No, he didn’t give him anything. Downey gave Baker the package. I was joking about the flask and I asked him why he didn’t put one in my pocket. Q—And it was what appeared to you to be an engrossed bill and the copies? A—Yes, Q—Did Downey say anything to you at the time about it further? A—I didn’t remain more than a few seconds and left, Q—Was that in the back end of the House Chamber or out in the corridor outside? A—It was in the corridor in the extreme north end of the entrance to the House of Representatives. Q—You mean where you go in the back entrance—where you g0 into the stenographers’ and Speaker's room? A--Yes. Q—Was anybody else there at the time besides you and Baker and Downey? A—I was talking to Baker at the time that Martin approached and there was no one within reasonable hearing distance of us. Q—Was Baker talking about this Senate Bill 173 to you? A—No. I had no conversation with reference to the Senate Bill or any other bill. Q—Did you hear any conversation there between Downey and Baker about what those papers were or what he was going to do with them? A—No, I didn’t know there were papers at the time, As I say, I said to Downey afterward, “I saw you put these bills in his pocket.” He said, “Yes.” Then Downey, in answer to that, said to me, “You probably would have done the same thing as I did, because Baker, being an offi cial of one of our best institutions,” he said, “you probably would have favored him with seeing what the contents were because he should know what was in the bill.” That was after all this had happened. Q—This wasn’t at the time—This was the same morning that Wayne Coy was assaulted out here? A— This conversation didn't take place the same morning. This was on the following morning. The assault took place a day or two later. Q—The point I am trying to get at—Let’s get that straight. You saw these papers placed in Baker's Pocket when? A—That was on the morning of the affair with Coy. Q—Then Baker didn’t reach over and take these papers out of Martin Downey's pocket? A—No. If these were the papers, he didn’t do that. Q—There wasn’t any conversation between Downey and Baker there that you heard at the moment? With reference to the bill? A—No. Q—Did Baker immediately walk away after he received these bills? A—I1 left before they parted. I thought there was a matter of privacy there or this exchange would not have taken place so I left. Q-—What is your best recollection, Mr. Ropkey, about the time of morning that this incident took place? A—I don’t know—it must have been sometime in the morning. Well, just before we adjourned. Q—Just before you adjourned? A—1I think about an hour before we adjourned. I don't know. Q—It was before you had your lunch, you remember that? A—Yes. Q—Had Joel Baker talked to you about Senate Bill 173 at any time? A—No. Q—Did you see Peter Cancilla around at that time? A—No, I

| aian'e see Canin,

present in a room in the Claypool Hotel a few weeks ago with Mr. Joel | | Baker when an officer came to the |

Q—How many times had you

A-—Ernest

| Q—You know him. do you? A—I | didn't know his last name. I knew him by “Pete.” I didn't know who he was until after I had seen his picture in the paper. ' Q—You are quite certain that this occurrance happened on the day that Mr. Coy was assaulted? A—It did happen on that day. Oh —you mean with reference to the papers? Q—Yes. A—I'm not so sure about, that when vou put it that way. I'm not so sure. 1 just don't want to make a definite statement on that, As a matter of fact, I rather think not. Because I think this hap pened prior to that and then this other matter happened, because it happened prior to that—prior to the trouble with Baker, or with Coy. If 1 made the other state= ment I want to correct it. Q—In other words, it is your recollection that the transfer of these papers from Mr. Downey to Mr. Baker occurred some two or | three days prior to the assault on Mr. Coy? A—That's right. Yes, that’s about correct. Q—Was Mr. Downey eating anything at the time that you recall? A—No. Q—You and Mr. Baker were cone versing together? A—Hold on about that eating business—I believe he did have a chocolate bar of some sort that he was eating. Q—That is, Mr. Downey, do you mean? A—Yes. Q—Was Mr. Downey standing near the sandwich counter at the time? A--No, it was at the entrance of the stenographers’ room and we were standing next to that pillar there at the southwest core ner of that— Q—As I get the picture now, you and Mr. Baker were talking together, Mr. Downey walked out of the House Chamber eating this bar of candy. A—No, he came from around the hall here. Around here— Q—Around the lunch counter, yon mean? A-—Yes, from the direction, I saw him approaching us from that direction, Q—And of course you didn’t notice the number on the bill? A—Na, I couldn’t even swear it was a bill, It just had the appearance of one. Q—This little transaction of Downey's if he hadn't confirmed my statement, I wouldn't have known it was a bill. I said to him, as IT told you that I said, “That was the hill.” He said, “Yes.” Q—Are you a member of Judie ciary A Committee of the House? | A—I am not. WITNESS EXCUSED

SCHUMACHER RESOLUTION

Text of Councilman Schumach= er’s resolution asking Mayor Kern to investigate legislative disclos= ures against Policemen Dalton and Dugan follows:

I have herewith 14 copies of a resolution for introduction at the next regular meeting of the City Council, March 15, 1937. In my opinion the subject with which this resolution is cone cerned is of such general importance that same should be passed under suspension of the rules at this meeting.

Whereas, there has recently ocr curred in the corridors of ‘the State House in the City of Indianapolis a most deplorable and disgrace= ful incident, wherein a trusted and respected official of the State of Indiana and the Federal Government was viciously assaulted and brutally beaten, and

Whereas, such deplorable and disgraceful incident is reported to have had its inception in and been the culmination of vicious and lawless attempts by certain individuals and public officials to obstruct legislation being considered by the members of the 80th General Assembly of the State of Indiana, and

Whereas, it has been reported in the public press and elsewhere that certain members of the Police Department of the City of Indianapolis were involved in said lawless and vicious efforts to obstruct said legislation then before said General Assembly, and Whereas, certain members of the police department of the City of Indianapolis have been openly and publicly charged with having intimidated and threatened such members of the General Assembly, and Whereas, said reports and charges have been recognized and on their face substantiated by the action of the Chief of Police of the City of Indianapolis in demoting one police officer, alleged to have been involved in such lawless and improper activities and in transferring another police officer from his regular assignment, and Whereas, the duties of the police officers of the City of Indianapolis are supposed to be cone fined, both by law and tradition, to the protection of the citizens of the community and of property and enforcement of the public welfare and safety, and

Whereas, the reports of such lawless and improper activities on the part of members of the Ine dianapolis Police Department and rumors in connection therewith are inimical to the welfare of the City of Indianapolis and its general reputation and prestige and are of such nature as to merit a most searching investigation by the Mayor and other executive officials of the City of Indianapolis.

Now, therefore, be it resolved that the Common Council of the City of Indianapolis should and it does now hereby request the Hon, John W. Kern, Mayor of the City of Indianapolis, to investigate in a most complete and thorough manner the alleged lawless and improper activities of police officers of the City of Indianapolis in the obstruction of legislation before the General Assembly of the State of Indiana and make to this Common Council a complete report thereon, and such report include the names of all police officers engaged or involved in such lawless and improper active ities and full particulars in connection therewith, including any reasons given by such police officers for engaging in such activ~ ities, and full particulars as to whether said police officers were engaged in said lawless or improper activities during their regular hours of duty.