Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 8 March 1937 — Page 17

MONDAY, MARCH §

1937

THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES

PAGE 17

The Q-and-A of Probe Committee's Saturday Hearing

(Continued from Page 16)

some informal comment and walked away. He then said, “The trouble with you, Sheppard, is that you want to put a lot of ‘poochers’ in the County Welfare Department, but you are not going to do it in Marion County.” ¥ told him 1 didn’t sce why he was worrying about the Department because it seemed to be getting along all right. Then he said, "Do you know what I would do to you, Sheppard, if vou interfered with the operatio of my Department? 1 would kill you. Yon don’t believe that, do you? Well, I would.”

1 could see that he was trying to nick a quarrel. He had been drinking heavily, so I simply snapped my fingers in his face and walked away from the fellow. Q—Did you see him after that? A—I didn't see him after that. Q—Do vou know what he meant by *“poochers’? A—No, I do not.

Q—Do you know Peter Cancilla? A—I have never met the man. Q—Do you know whether he was about Baker when that conversation was held? A-—I do not. Q—When was that, with reference to the attack on Wayne Coy? A—On Saturday before the Monday on which Mr. Coy was 2attacked. Q—Did he tell von where that bill was at that time? A—He did not. Q—Did he elaborate on how he was going to kill the bill? A—He did not.

Q—Or the

didn’t disclose

methods by which he was going to

kill you? A—No. Q—Do vou know Martin L. Downev of the House? a Representative in the House. Q—Have you ever seen him conversation with Joel Baker? have not. Q—Did Baker ever discuss Dow- | rev with vou? A—He did not. WITNESS EXCUSED

in I

SARAH KIRBY

Q-—Now, what is your name? A— Sarah Kirby Q—Where do vou live, Miss Kirhv? A—-2384 Central. Q@—Where are vou employed? A— Harrison Hotel.

QR—Where do you work there? A— Taproom. Q—Dbo you know Joel Baker? A— Yes, Q—And you know Peter Cancilla? A—Yes, | Q—Did youn see them on Monday, | March 1st? A—Yes, I did. Q—Where did you see them? A— At the bar in the taproom. Q—Now about what time did vou sce them first? A—First time it was | s bout, I don’t know just exactly, it yas ahout 11 or 11:20, I would say. Q—Were they there together? A= Yes. Q—Anybody else there? A—Well, | Judge Myers, I think, came in and | rtaved about five minutes and] valked away. Q—Who is Judge Judge Dewey E. Myers. Q—Of the Municipal Court here? A=Yes, 1 think he is.

Myers? A—

there? A—Not over 20 minutes, I do not think. Q—And then, did you any of their conversation?

well not then. When they started

overhear

out the door I was over by the win- |

dow and I could not hear what they were saying. Q—When they went ont the doorwav did they say anvthing? A— Pete said “I have a little job to de.” Q—The two were together? A— Yes, Q—Who did he say this te? Well he just lveked up and looked 2t me and Joel was with him and vent out the door laughing.

QR—He said 1é had a little job to | y

vo? A-—-Yes. Q—How long were they gone? A— They were gone not over 25 minnutes. Q—And then did they come back together? A—Yes, Q—Did you hear them talking then? A—No.

@—Did you see them in the tap- |

yoom then? A-—Yes.

Q—How Jong were they in the

taproom? A—They were in the

tapioom long enough te take three

drinks, just real quick and walked right out the same door.

N—Mow Jong id it take them to A=—They drank |

{ake three drinks? them fast. Just poured them as fast as they could drink them. Q—About what time did they come in there would veu say? time it was around 11:30, I am prettv sure. Q-—They were gone about 25 minnutes? minutes, QR—Did vou hear any conversation Petween them then? A-—-No, because I was over at the window and they were at the bar. QR—Did they act excited? that is why I remember,

A—No. Maybe if

1 had known what had been going |

on I would have paid more attention. Q—Was that the same day that Wayne Coy was attacked at the State House? A-—-Yes. R—Do you know he was attacked while they were gone? go because the girl who worked for Joel Baker came in and was excited. Q—What girl? A—The girl that works for him, I think. R—You mean Miss Church? His secretary.” She has black hair and I would say she is about 30. I don’t know her name. Q=De they call her Patsy? A= Yes, Q—You have seen her over at the Harrison a good deal? A=—VYes, Q—This girl came in excited? A— She came in and asked if Mr. Baker had been in and I told her yes he had just left so she went out the door that he went out. I told her which door, so it was not five minnies then until I heard what had just happened so it must have happened tapreom,

Q-=When they came back the

recend time they came in Jaunghing? A=Well, they were laughing and talking between themselves, QR--Botih Baker and Peter Cancilla were laughing? A-=Yes, QR==They took thies drinks? A= No, did I say three. They woek thes the first time and four the last time, Four drinks the second time? A=

A—1 know he is | ... | dining room.

o'clock or after noon, how | fellows enter the bar. Can

long enough on that | take three quick drinks?

! { down. Q—About how long did they stay |

A—Npo, |

A— |

A—First |

A=They were gone about 23

A—I think |

A= | A

efore he came over to the

| Q—What did they drink? | They drank V. 0. and White Rock.

| Q—Four the first time and three | the second. | time and four the second time.

Q—Seven drinks? A—Yes, Q-—Now was anybody else in there

on this second occasion? A—I could | that was there? : | walked in and stayed about five or | ity upon Mr. Baker to hire and | am

, not say for sure. | Q—Was anvbody else? A—1 realIy do not know. I know that we did not have any business.

| | |

Q—Do you have a bartender in| |

{ there? A—Yes.

Q—Who was the bartender? A— | | The bartender on duty I do not |

know. He is a new bartender.

His |

last name is Macey. I don't know |

{ his first name.

Q—M-A-C-E-Y? A—Yes.

| mittee?

Q—Were you on duty there about |

| Wednesday night before that? | Yes.

Q—Have you seen them there on timation that you had beeh ap-

any other three? one night? A—Friday. Q—Did they eat supper there Friday night? A—VYes, Q—Who was there on that occasion? A—Just the three of them.

occasions than those

Q—That is Joel Baker, Peter Can- Mr. Baker as Director of the Board?

| A—No, I probably can save you a conversa- |

cilla and Morton Downey? Q—Did you hear any tion between them on that occasion? A-—No, because I do not work in the I just saw them out

A—Yes.

there. Q—Have you seen Joel around the hotel frequently? Yes, up until the last few days. Q—Have you seen Peter Cancilla around there with him? A—Ves. Q—Did vou ever sce Martin Downey with him on any other oceasions than those two? fore, Q—Where did—on this secon

d trip to the bar on Monday

after 12 did these

ill Baker, pa aha

trance? Q—Came right in off Capitol Ave.?

| A—Yes, Q—Here in Indianapolis? A—Yes.| Q@—Youn say they were both Taugh- |

ing? A=Just laughing and talking.

Q—Seemed to be in good humor

Land well pleased with themselves? | A—Seemed so.

Q—You say they just stayed there occasion to A—Four. Q—These were not straight drinks.

| They had to wait until the drinks { Were poured and | White Rock?

mix them with A—They mixed them themselves. I could not say whether they mixed them. They usually

[mix them.

Q—They were just there long enough to drink these four drinks rather hurriedly, is that right? A— Yes.

A—Yes. Q—Were they seated at the bar this last time? A—They did not sit They stood up. Q—And this man Macey, this new bartender was on duty back of the bar? A—VYes. Q—And when thev left did they go out by the same Capitol Ave. entrance? A=Yes. Q—You were over by the window. | were you not? A—Ves, I was standing by the window when they came in. Q—DPid you observe which ditvection they went when they went out? A=Yes, they turned at the corner of the hotel and went down Market St, I guess.

| that way.

| Q=Went down Market St.? A= ! es, | Q—And did vou see anything else | that attracted your attention partie= | ularly outside of their teking these | drinks and their Jaughter and lev= ity? A=No. | Q—Didn't see any weapons or | iything of that sort, did you? A— 0. Q—Ever see this Cancilla in there {or any other place when he had a | Weapon that he displayed or you JR% of any kind or character? A— NO

A—Never be- |

in through the street en-| A—Capitol Ave. entrance. |

I could not see after!

they turned, but they went down 2nd

| were you in contact with the per- | formance of duties by that particu: |

See them eat supper there | Cox sent for me.

self,

but the bartender. Q—Do you member anybody else | A—Judge Myers | six minutes. i Q—Anybody else that you knew? | A—I don't think so, l WITNESS EXCUSED.

| F. 0. BEL2ER

Q—State your name to the Com- | A—F. O. Belzer. Q—What is your business? A—I am the Boy Scout Executive here in the City, in this connection, I am a member of the Board. Q—How long have you been a Boy Scout Executive? A—22 years. Q—How long have you been a member of the Board? A—Of this Board, ever since it was formed last April. Q—Who appointed you a member of the Welfare Board of Marion County? A—Judge Cox. Q—He is the Judge of the Circuit Court? A—Yes, I think it is the Circuit Court. Q—Did you request to be appointed a member of the Board? A—No, I did not. Q—When did you get the first in-

pointed? A—It was at the time the Board was being formed and Judge | It was in the morning, I can’t remember the date. | Q—After you were appointed a | member of the Board, did anyone talk to you about the appointment of |

little time by telling you how that | happened. Just as soon as I was] appointed in the morning about 11 |

| o'clock, and sworn in, I had I think

all that there would be | Baker | telephone call | A=]

a meeting of the Board that after-| noon, at 2 o'clock, I think at the | Athletic Club. So it was practically only an hour or two aiter I was ap-| pointed until the Board met. Q—Did you go to the meeting of | the Board? A-—Yes, sir. Q—What was said and done at

| the meeting of the Board? A—Well,

| were read, one or two were read, Mr. Baker?

| Baker and it was seconded by some

Q—All this time they Were laughs | ohars SURE Members of the Board,

ling and talking with each other?

| |

{ |

Q—That is the last time vou have |

seen either of those two men? That is the last time. R—This time when you saw Downey in there were they already there [when Mr. Downey came into the

down at the table and after a few | minutes they went over and joined him. R—You did not overhear any of their conversation? A=—No.

| { |

| procedure there at the meeting . . .

| and a motion was made that Mr.

| Mr. Baker, and I was permitted to

the problem of appointing a director | was taken up, Judge Slack was voted | permanent President of the Board, the discussion of the organization of the Board took place, of course, | first, Mr. Tripp was made secretary, | and then as an item of business came the matter of the appointment | of the Director, and Mr. Slack had | applications there, some of which |

and I am telling vou frankly the | Q—That is what we want . . ./| A—In a little while he took up the proposition of Mr. Baker's application, and that was discussed pro and con, and I thought and expressed the opinion that it would take some time to choose a director, that there should probably be some procedure gone through in the way of qualifications and requirements of the individual, but Mr. Slack made a pretty strong plea for Mr. |

Baker be appointed, and I asked permission not to vote. I asked to be excused from voting on that. 1 wasn't ready to vote. I didn’t know

be excused from the voting, and the records will show that I did not | vote on the appointment of Mr. | Baker. Q—Was there any investigation made of Mr. Baker's application as | Director? A—Not that Q@—He was appointed solely on | the request of Mr. Slack. A—I| would not put it request, but it was | a recommendation, and was con- | curred in on the recommendation, | by the Board. Q—After the Board concurred lie was appointed Director, |

I know of. |

lar department? A—Well, fairly so, | not being chairman of the Poard, | I didn’t feel called upon to go out- | side of the routine Procniuiee | which is common in board meet- | ings, that the executive secretary | handled the business and the | Board passes on them, and I might say furthermore that one of the! board members, Mr. Linn Tripp, | who is the social service director so to speak, under the Church Federation, is closely in contact with | the courts and acts as a Social serv-| fee man, and this whole setup was right in his line, so to speak, and

| he spent a great deal of time over

there at the Welfare Department, assisting and co-operating, net as a paid individual, and I went over |

|taproom? A-—They were at the bar | there quite a number of times, and and Mr. Downey came in and sat|M

Q-—This lady that vou referred te, | often, but I went over there a num= |

came in and inquired about Mr.

| A==Yes, Q=Moes she live there? A=—Rhe | does not live there, but comes in | with him all the time. ¥ saw her Saturday night, at the Claypool with Mr. Baker. | Q=What time of the night? A= | About 11 p. wm. Q—Where did you see them? A= | Ih the Tavern. | Q=Were they drinking? A=—They | Were eating. | ye Mr. Cancilla with them? =Ne. R—Did Mr. Baker have any cons | versation with you? A—No. | Q—Ever talk with you about any= | thing? A-—Ne. Q—Mr. Cancilla ever talk to you | about anything? A=—No. | @—Was Mr. Macey in a position | Where he could overhear any con- | versation? A-—He was behind the [ bar. No one else at the bar the first time they were in, the first time they were in, Judge Myers was in, { for a few minutes. | Q=At the time you refer to this | conversation, was anything said by

A==1 didn’t hear. Q=Were any thieats wade by either one against any person? A= Only what 1 told you.

ence to My. Coy?

Q—=When they came hack theve |

the second time to the bar and took | those drinks who was in the bay | Foot there, besides yourself and the | bartender? A—=Well, I can't remem= | ber jist whether there was anyone oa os I do know we didn’t have ty business, and I don't think any-

Baker, have you seen her since? A= | y when he was under the influence |

Q=—Had you ever seen her before? | | talked to him once when I smelled

either Cancilla or Baker in refers |

ber of times.

Q—Did you ever talk to him

of liquor? A—No, I have not. I liquor on his breath. That has been recently Q=When appointments were to be made or pensions passed upon, did the Board do anything cons cerning that? A-—To begin with, I don't know whether Miss Chureh's statement here is adequate or not, the appointments were considered, and recommendations were made by Myr. Baker to the Board to-= gether with the salaries that were to be paid, and they were put up to the Board, and were proposed and voted upon and approved by the Board as a whole. Q—=That was at the beginning? A=Yes, and however that was kept up or whether that included all of the appointees or not I am not able to say. Q=How often did the Board meet? A=Once a month. Q=When was the last time the Board passed on appointments? A =That has been a good while age. Q=How long age? A=I would say nine months, shortly after the organization was set up, two or three months after it was set up, that would make it along about June or July, as nearly as { ean recollect, Q—In other words, the Board ginee June or July has never taken | any action eoncerning appoints | ments, diseharges of anything of that sort, from the membership? AT feel I should gay this to this board: of the members of the Board, made a motion that Mr,

| Mr. Baker performing his duty.

A— | one except the bartender and my- | Baker be given the authority to) | hire and fire and that was seconded |

Q—Just before they went to the by other members of the Board, |

A—No, three the first State House, about noon, who be- | and I dissented with that, and voted | sides yourself was there? A—No one | against it, but that was passed.

EARL R. COX

Q—State your name to the com-

That is the conversation

| serve it. Baker, the

| that I had with Joel | enly one. | Q—What I refer to now is his po- | litical activity after he was ap-

Q=Have you any knowledge of any official connection he might have had with any of the courts in the city of Indianapolis, or Marion County? A—Only as a lawyer, rep-

Q=You know Peter Cancilla? A= | By sight only. | Q=Did you see them in the State House that day? A=On my way | over here T met them, at the south

Q—Who made that motion? A— | mittee? A—My name is Earl R. pointed. A=I certainly did not, Mr. | resenting clients in court. That is | east stairway, at the foot of the

Mrs. Woolling. Q—So you conferred full author-

fire? A—Yes, Q—And since that time the Board paid no attention to the appointments or discharges? A—No. Q—Well, did you confer full authority on Mr. Baker to set the amount of payments that would be made? A—I am not sure that that was ever brought up. Q—Do you as a Board have any-

thing to do with the amount of the |

payments that were made to applicants for old age assistance? A— Well, that all comes through on a pretty well defined plan laid down

by the state organization, as I un-| Those applications are |

derstand it. specifically laid out and all of the Board members must sign them, and we have signed those by the hundreds because they come through thick and fast. Q—You never made any particular investigations to determine whether any of the amounts were correct, questioned any of the amounts? A—I didn't raise any question, the amounts were not out

of line, it seemed to me nothing on |

them over $20 or $23 a month, as I noticed it running down to $6 or $7 a month. irregular in those amounts. I looked them over.

Q—Was any objection ever made |

by the Board as to the methods of A— Not by the Board. Q—When this question of modifying the Welface Act came up, so

| that the employees would be subject

to examination, was there any discussion by the Board of that matter? A—We haven't had any meetings. Q—Or no discussion by you as individuals? A—Among the Board members? Q—Yes. A—Not that I know of. Q—Mr. Baker ever talk to the Board about it? A—Not that I know of. He didn't talk to me about it. Q—Did you know that that matter was before the Legislature? A— Yes, I saw it in the press. Q—Individually you didn't take any action about it? A—I didn't take any action, what do you mean, express myself, or anything of that king? Q—Yes. A—I expressed myself as approving it. Q-—Did you express yourself to A—No. That was just in the family. @—Never to any other of the Board? A—No. Q—You don't know anvthing in-

members

| dividually about this Welfare Bill. | A—Nothing beyond what

I have read in the press of the details of it. You mean the bill as a docu-

| ment?

Q—Yes. A—No. Q—You weren't around the Welfare Board this week or last week? A—I was there at the meeting this week. Q=What time of the week? A—I think it was Monday that we had our Board meeting. Q—What was done at the Board meeting Monday? A—It wasn't formal meeting at all. I had notice to coms over and Mr. Slack and Mr.

| Tripp and myself were the only ones

there, Mrs. Woolling and Mrs. Ruddell were not there, and the only

| thing that came up was the genthe procedures

eral discussion of

ganization and the welfare business would be placed before the public in the right light. In other words,

| that there would be no implications eh the Board with regard to the | handling of the business of the wel- | fare organization.

Q@—That is, vour discussion was

| the hope that there would be no

implications or reflections upon the Board in regard to welfare matters in Marion County? A-—Yes, that was all that was taken up. Q—Didn’'t you ever attend any meeting where Peter Cancilla was present? A—No, I have never seen him. Q=Did you ever attend a meet= ing Where some judges were pres= ent, and discussed the Welfare Act? A—No, I haven't been to anything. Q=VYou say there were other applications presented to the Board for appointment as director? A= Yes, there were some applications. My. Slack had them, G=Do you recall who they were? A=Nwo, I don't. Q=Were they read in open meeting? A=One or two were read. Q=0ut of a stack? *A==Neo, there would not be a stack; it was so soon: there wasn't time for applications to come in=probably three or four. Q=Probably three or four appli cations, and out of that group, there were two read? A=That is wy

memory. I would not want te state

| that as being acewrate; that is in

the neighborhood.

Q—Now, you stated that My.

| Black presented Myr. Baker's name | to the Board, and that it was sec= |

onded by some person—do you res call who it was that seconded the nomination of Mr. Baker? A=No, I do not. I would not want to say because I could not remember aecurately. Q—What position did you oceu in the Board, Mr. Belaer, were You to fill IM? A=I was just a buek private. Q=You had really nothing to do with the appointments op anything else? A=I was the minority. Q—Mr. Belzer, have you been gatisfied with Joel Bakei's conduct of that department as a Board mem= ber? A-—In some ways, not. I will say this: that it looked to me like the thing Was being handled in a business-like way so far as the man= agement and setup and organization and procedures, it all looked O. K. to me, looked to me like it war So Dandie v W=In What way weren't you sats isfied? A<Well, I wasn't satisfied with one complaint that came to me from one of the employees that was discharged, summarily without any reason whatever, that was just at election time. The lady is a neighbor of mine, and she said that

she had been dismissed without

hi’ we Q=Did she tell yo bon dare 1a) | i why she had was accused of talking politics. Q==Ix she the one whose father had been seen wearing the Landon

button? A-Yes,

I didn’t see anything |

A==Because she

| Cox. | @—Your official position? A-—1 judge of the Marion Circuit Court. | Q—As judge of the Marion Circuit Court you appoint the County Welfare Board?

| yes, sir. | Q—That was appointed when, Judge? A—Pursuant to the pro- | visions of the Act, Senator. I don't | recall. Q—Along in April or May of last | year? A-—My recollection is it was spring time. It was whenever the act provided that it be appointed. Q—It is a bipartisan board, isn't it? A—It is a board appointed under the act with no more than a majority of one political party, I think the act indicates.

Q—Quite often I know that judges keep close contact with the boards and their actions, and quite often they do not. What was the situation in Marion County, Judge? Did you have any contact after the board was appointed? A—1 did not, Senator, have any contact with the Board with the exception of referring cases which were deserving, especially these divorce cases where there wasn’t any place to put children and I referred those matters to the | board; incidentally I referred to the | board several discrepancies which I discovered for pensions of blind people. I referred several instances to them. I | think one where 1 thought it was | too much and a couple of times

| | | | | |

| where I thought that they had given |

| too much, knowing something about the people. Q—But as to the actual transae- | tions of the Board, and the appoint- | ments of the Board, you khew nothing? A—Nothing, Senator. The | business of the court is such that it | does not permit of it. | Q—-I understand that. You were |acquainted, of course, with the direc- | tor of the board, Mr. Baker? Yes, sir.

| Q—He wasn't connected with your | A—Never at any |

{court in any way? time. | Q@—And Mr. Cancilla, he was merely a lawyer as there are a {lot of other lawyers in Indianapolis? A—Yes, sir, he was merely a lawyer. | Q—=—Practiced

in all the courts?

| A=I might add that he has been on |

| one occasion in the Cireuit Courts, | Senator, and that cause is still | pending due to his absence, not be-

|ing there upon stated cause.

| Q—=You know nothing about this |

| Welfare Bill 173? A—I never heard | of it, Senator, until I saw it in the | public press. | Q—None of the members of the | Board have discussed it with you, | Judge? A—Not at all. Q—No one else? A=—No one has | discussed this bill with me. Q—You have no knowledge about | this matter before this Legislature | except what you saw in the public | press? A—That is all, Senator. I | have no knowledge at all. Q—When did you last see Joel Baker, Judge Cox? A-—I think I saw Joel Baker, Mr. Andrew, about | three weeks ago, possibly three or | four; between three or four weeks | 280. Q=You recall the date of the at- | tack of Peter Cancilla on Wayne [ Coy? A=Do I recall the date? | Q=The date. A=I remember the | incident as reported in the papers, and as told to me, yes, Tt oceurred [in this building. | Q=To refresh your memory, it oc- | curred on March 1, that was last | Monday. A=That would be my ree- | ollection, yes.

ence with Joel Baker and Peter Cancilla since that date? A=Not at all. Q=In company with any other judge in Marion County? A==In company with any other judge? Q=In the presence of any other judge of Marion County? A=Oh, no. QR=Have you had any communis cation with Joel Baker? A==Abso= lutely no. Q—Since March 1? A-==I have not. And for a period, as I say, Mr. Andrew, two or three weeks before | thats | @==Judge, did you attend any | meeting last week, the early part ot | last week when two other judges | and Baker and Peter Cancilla were present? A=—Oh, no. A meeting for | what? Ass

| @—Discuss the Welfare Act? | Oh, no. That never was discussed.

| Q=Did you ever authorize Joel | Baker in any way to take any steps | in lobbying against this bill 173? A= | I eertainly did not, not knowing the | provisions of it, I knew nothing | about it; I never talked to Joel | Baker about it. Q=Did you have any knowledge | of his activity? A=I had none, | none at all, The first indication I had of this bill is a copy which some one kindly gave me here in the outer room, one of the door keepers went over and got it for me. That is the first time with the exception of the time that Mr, Shepherd and Judge Wasson came to the court and qualified Mr. Sheppard on this bond. That is the first time I had seen any of the pro= visions of the bill. Q=That was after Mr. Sheppard took charge of the Department? A= That was at a time, Senator, when he was about to take charge, It was at the time that he gave his bond in order to take charge. Mr. Wasson gave it to me, and I inquired about several of the provisions, particularly the bond. The old act indicated that; the old bond indicated that the bond was $5000. So that is it, Senator, that is all that happened. @-—You had placed no restrictions on Joel Baker as Director of Public Welfare in Marion County as to his | political activity, did you? A=I cer= | tainly did. | Q=You told him that he was not { i

to engage in any political activity?

A=It was a matter of public moms |

ent in the court room when he was appointed and took the oath. Somes one in a jocular mood said, “Do politios enter into this?” and I said, | “No, gentlemen.” I said, “The bill it an outgrowth of the congresgional bill and certainly polities has not anything to do with the giving of money to these people who

A—I did appoint | | the Marion County Welfare Board, |

in signing applications |

Ass]

Q=—Have you been in any confer- |

de- |

| Andrew,

| Q—You had no knowledge? | Certainly not. | Q—=—If we should find from his records here a list of delegates to | the state convention of the Demo- | eratic Party on which your name, Earl R. Cox, 5510 Kesler Blvd, Cir- | cuit Judge, appears among them | you have no knowledge of that? A I certainly do have. .I was elected | a delegate from my district and sat | in the last state convention. | Q—Have you any knowledge of Joel Baker's activity? A—I have no knowledge except he was for Governor Townsend and so was I long before he ever heard of him. Q—=Do you know that he was active in politics during the past elec- | tion—Joel Baker? A—The past elec= tion I would say that he was active in politics. Q—We!l then, you have that knowledge that he was active in Democratic politics? A-—No question about it. Q—And that you make no objection to? A-—Not at all. If he does not confound it and he does not conflict it with the executive position that he held in this Welfare Board. He was a Democrat and so am I, Q—Proud of it? A—Yes, sir. Q—Are you acquainted with anyvbodv in the Welfare Department?

’ —

ment? A—Yes, Mr. Andrew, I am. QR—Do vou know one Elizabeth G. Nealy? A—I never heard of the lady, no. Q—You are acquainted with the handwriting of Joel Baker? A-=No, | IT am not. I know three or four peo= | ple, I knew three or four people in | the welfare department out of some [60 or 70 T am told they embloy. | That is all I knew. I walked in | there and was not recognized bv anybody last week. so my pride | might have been piqued, but that is | the truth. WITNESS EXCUSED,

HENRY GOETT

Q-—Where do vou live, Mr. Goett? | A—432 Sanders Street. @—What present position do you | hold? A—I am Deputy Prosecutor, in charge of the Grand Jury. @—In charge of the Grand Jury? | A=—Yes, sir. | Q—Are yousacquainted with Joel | Baker? A—7J am. | Q—=How long have you known (him. A-—I would say aproximately | since 1926. | Q—Acquainted with eilin? A=] am. @R—How long have you Kkhown (him? A--I got acquainted with him | about the time I came into the Prosecutor's Office, as a Deputy | Prosecutor. Q=When was that? A=That was [in 1935, if I remember correctly, I | took office in '35, and Mr. Cancilla | was appointed a Deputy Prosecu- | tor and assigned to one of the Su- | perior Courts, | Q=Worked in and about there at that time? A=In the Superior Court where he was assighed, | whichever one that was.

Peter Can-

appointment of the Judge of the | Criminal Court. Q—How long have you close friends? A=Well, I did not | know exactly they were | friends, but I knew that they as= | sociated together, I would say

| something perhaps something about |

two years perhaps. O=You have seen them together during that period of time? A== | Sometimes IT have seen them to- | gether, yes, sir,

| Q=Where have you seen them? |

| A=Well, T have seen them together | most generally at the Indiana Dem- | oeratie Club. Q==You ever see them together in | and about the City of Indianapolis? | A=Perhaps on the street, or per= haps once or twice, or maybe more | than that in the Court House, at different times, I had seen them together, Q-—At the time Joel Baker was | Chief Probation Officer in the Crims= | inal Court, you see them together [at that time, at that time I be= | lieve you stated? A=Well, I couldn't | say definitely. I couldn't how re= (eall any particular incident, in | which I could say that I saw them | together in the Court House. I just have an impression that I have seen | them in the Court House, and have | seen them several times on the | street, and having lunch at the Democratic Club at noon time, Q=Are you a close friend of Joel | Baker's? A=I wouldn't term myjgelf as a close | Baker's. | Q==You met him socially? | No, I did not, Q==Practically the only contact | was professionally, as you might | have seen him at the Democratic | Club? A==Well, I don't understand what you mean by professionally, Q=1 mean as he was Prosecutor or Probation Officer? A==Never had any contact with him as Prosecutor. Q=You didn't? A==My activities are generally confined to service with the Grand Jury, and I do not recall any occasion I ever had of dealing with Mr. Baker, in the Criminal Court about any matter, Q==You know the occasion of Pete Caneilla’s attack on Tipton Blish? A=I have heard of it, the same as I have heard of this ate tack. Q=You have no official knowl edge, it didn’t come before you offi= cially at that time? A=-No, I think that was handled by affidavit and it never came to the grand jury room, Q—How long have you had knowl edge of the criminal record of Pete Cancilla? A==At the time that it was submitted to our office, that was my first occasion to know that he ever had any criminal record. As a matter of fact, he was more or less of a stranger to me, when he was appointed Deputy Prosecu- | tor, and has more or less been that | way ever since. I have not had any contact or relationship with Mr, | Caneilla, | Q=Officially or otherwise? A— Officially ar otherwise, that is core rect. | Q==Hag he ever conferred with you | with reference to any clients that | he had, in before the Courts? A= He has not, Q=0Or to your knowledge, with any one with whom you might be working? A=Not to my knowledge. hE A

Employees of the Welfare Depart- | the dismissal of a grand jury about |

known | Joel Baker and Pete Cancilla to be |

close |

friend of Joel! A= |

| the only information I have of any

| kind, as to whether or not he has |

| any connection in any official ca-

| pacity with any court whatsoever, |

other than the fact that I had read | in the paper that he was appointed [a receiver out of Judge Slack's | Court. Q—You had no official connection with that? A-—None whatsoever, | tion with the present proceedings in | your office, to apprehend Pete Canlcilla? A—I have. | Q—Have no knowledge, I presume, {of his whereabouts? A--If I had, {why I would do what I could to | bring him back. Q=Do you know Mr. I. C. Spen-= eer? A—I do not=Beg your pardon, I do, too, know the gentleman, Q-—=The gentleman that was here before? A—Yes, I met him, I believe in 1919, when I was employed at Nordyke and Marmon’s, played on the basketball team out there; we had some contact, as I vaguely remember, Q—You know Herbert Spencer? A={ do, yes, sir. Q-Are they related, you know that? A-==No, there is no relationship whatsoever between Mr. Spencer, as the present Prosecutor, and | Mr. I. C. Spencer, who is connected | with the Welfare Department,

the time they were to have ren dered certain indictments

A—Know what? Q—You know anything about the | dismissal of a grand jury by one of

| the judges here, about the time this |

| grand jury was about to render in-

| dictments against certain bank offi- | A—I know the first grand |

| cials? | jury I was assigned to was dis= | charged by Judge Baker at the time | they were investigating some of the | closed banks in Indianapolis, if that {is what you mean. | Q=Was this grand jury about to [return indictments against any of the bank officials, to your knowl edge? A=If they were, I never knew anything about it, because I am never present when the grand jury votes, and I am not permitted to be present, and I never do at-

as you, no doubt know, I am govered by what the grand jury does, whether or not they return an indictment. Q-=Did you have any independent information that this grand jury was about to return ments? A-=No, I did not.

for the dismissal by Judge Baker of this grand jury? A==No, other than the reasons. Q=What are those reasons? A I do not believe I can recall what

They were printed in the public

pose they were his reasons. WITNESS EXCUSED,

CHARLES MARSHALL

Q—=Will A=Charles

you state Marshall,

your

| shall? Indianapolis. Q=Where are you emploved at this time? A==8Safety Department, Public Welfare, Q==In what capacity? A==Djrector of the Division of General Administration, Q=You know Wayne Coy? I do. Q-=<Were you in the State House on Monday, March 1st? A—I was,

House with that morning? { came by myself, My. Coy here, Q=Did you meet him? did. Q-—=Where did you meet Mr. Coy first? A-=In the anteroom back by the Speaker's office, in the House. Q=For what purpose were you at the State House that day? A--To bring Mr. Coy some memorans dums that I had prepared. Q=0n what bill were those mem= orandums? A=They were on seve eral pending bills,

I came to meet

A==1

Bill 173? A=No sir. Q=What time did you sce Coy that morning? A=-Mr. had asked that I be over at the approximately 12 o'clock. gomewhat late. Q=You know Joel Baker?

I do.

Ava

Q—Have you any official connec=

Q—Do you know anything about |

against certain bank officials in this city?

tend any of the sessions when they | do cast their ballots, and of course, |

any indicts

Q=Did you know of any reason |

reasons he assigned at the time. |

press, and I have forgotten about | them, and whatever they are, I sup- |

name? |

Q—Where do you live, Mr. Mar- | A—=3615 W. Michigan St. |

Awe |

Q==Whao did you come to the State | Le

stairway, | Q-—At what time was that? A-- | I judge about 5 minutes before 12. Q—And did you know where they | went, after you saw them? A | They were going north, from the | foot of the stairway, at the same | time that I was going up the staire [way, I don't know where they were going. Q—Did you have any conversas tion with them? A-1 spoke to Mr. Baker and he returned the salustation 1th some way. Q=Did you notice whether or not—were you close enough to no= tice whether or not either Baker or Cancilla were intoxicated at that time? A-==No, it was only a mo= mentary contact. Q—=Was that before or after the attack on Wayne Coy? A~That was before the attack. Q==And how long before, if you know? A=Approximately 20, 25 minutes, I don’t know the exact time of the attack. Q=But you did see them togethe er approximately 20 or 25 minutes before the attack, in the lower hall of the State House? A-That's right, Q—Did you attack on Wayne Coy? | not, Q—=Where were you when Wayne .A=I wag about Coy=20 to 30

see them after the A=I did

| Coy was attacked? 30 feet from Mr. feet, Q—=Did you him? A-=My tracted to it. Mr. Coy. Q-—Did you see Peter Cancilla? | A==I did. Q=Tell now the Committee just what you saw with reference to the attack on Coy? A=I was hunting Mr. Coy and saw him in the Senate and was waiting for him to come out, and at the same time that I called to Mr. Coy, who was going south in the corridor, on this floor, from the lunch stand, a man whom I had been informed was Peter Cancilla, called to him at the same time, and Mr. Coy turned to talk to to him, and I passed on down and waited at the post, at the corner of the wall to the State House, at the foot of the southwest stairway, My attention was attracted to Mr. Coy then, who seemed to be turning away, to come over towards me, and then 1 noticed Mr. Cancilla was striking him. I yelled out to him, “Here, cut that out,” and he stopped and started to walk away, and I started after him. About that time Mr. Coy fell on the floor at my back, face down, and I turned to him and noticed that he was serie ously injured, and ran to the tele phone to call the police and the ambulance, In the meantime Mr. Cancilla had disappeared in the crowd towards the Junch stand. Q--State whether or not there was considerable crowd in the halle way at that time. A-—I think that I was approximately the only one | that was south, towards the south | of Mr, Coy, but there was quite a | crowd assembled to the north, tos | wards the lunch stand. Q-Did vou see Joel Baker? I did not see him, Q-—=Was a considerable crowd up | around where this attack took place? A-=That's right. Q—You say Cancilla went north? A==Yes, sir. Q=That would take him up either beyond the Senate Chamber, or the House Chamber, that if he continued north? A==That's right. Q==Did you notice, or did you fol low with your eyes long enough to tell which route he pursued? A-— I did not follow him because I did not know that Mr. Coy had been injured, I saw him struck, but I didn't realize that he had been injured, so I started to follow him, and then | Mr. Coy fell to the floor and began to groan and make outcries and so I turned back to him, and for that reason I could not follow Mr. Cane cilla's direction. Q-=That happened right out here in the corridor, did it, right outside this office here some place? AAbout the middle here. Q—=Did Mr. Coy ever talk to you about any opposition coming from Mr. Baker, or anyone else to this Senate Bill 173? A-—Well, nothing

see the attack on attention was at« I was waiting to see

Mr. | Coy |

State House before 12, and it was | 1 was | | know

more than just general discussion

{in a general way, nothing that I

Q—Were any of them on Sen-| eouid state specifically.

Q—Well, did he say that there was any concerted opposition against the bill from the local coun= ty organization here? A-Not to me. Q—Did he to anyone that you of? A-—Well, IT would not have any knowledge of that, WITNESS EXCUSED.

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