Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 8 March 1937 — Page 16

Page PDF (10.70 MB) Locked

Back to issue view

V PAGE 16

TE I ie

yg | THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES®

Additional Verbatim Testimony Before Legislative Probers

MONDAY, MARCH §,

“ 8 tts a A)

(Continued from Yage Five)

session of (has Legislature? A—=Yes, off and on. Q—Tinva you been in consolation With him during the session of the Legisiature? A--Yes, sic. Q—With re’erence {0 Senate Bil 173, have vou talked to him abaat thal? A ~ Net to anv extent, no, sir. a what exient have you fo him? A-1 have never ssed the detaii of it at all, Q--To vihat exiont have vou talked with him about il at ail? A— Well, tha on!y conversation we have had is that there is nothing for us ta he concerned aboul, that the Lill would be taken care of. Q—Did vou undersiand--would Ike *¢ make there, If I may. Q-—-All right, In that discussed, Q—This was not a political matter, This was a bill pending before the Leeiclatu A—Xes, bat the VOry nasure of commotion if

~-To talked discu

A—1

A—-T¢ is that no

ithe policy politics be

office

~ ii

$2 was

discussed in

that depsrtracni, because everybody |

was vitailr coreernied about it, Q--You are familiar with thea provia‘ons of the Dill, aren't you? A— Jot In detail, no, sir, Q—\Well, a you familiar the provisions of the bili as they fect Marion County? : av 1hat T wa

Q-—=\When Mr, Baker said to vou that you need

with afA —No, sir, I

~ ve

not worry about it that it would he taken care of, did {hat iake a load off your mind? A— Nat nccessarily, no, sir, Tt only meant that we were to go ahead and camry on and conduct that office in a basinesslike manner, Q-—1Inaependent of any interference from the Siate Welfare Department? A--We have never had anv interference. 0O-—You understand vou would not have any after Mr. Baker told you that the matter would be taken care of? A—No, IT would not get that inference from that. Q—What inference did you get from what he said, that the matter would be taken care of? A-—That not to let any of the employees ; worry or be concerned, keep working. Q—That the matter taken care of? A—Yes. Q—Did he explain how it would be taken care of? A-No. Q—Was he sober or intoxicated when vou talked to him? A--Sober. Q—You have seen him when he was intoxicated, haven't you? A— | 1 have seen him when he has had a drink, yes, sir. Q—You have seen him when he has had more than a drink, haven't you? A-—Probably more than one. Q-—And about the office when he has had more than a drink? A— Neo. I can't say that he has been ahout the office when he was intoxicated. Q—Where have you scen him when he was intoxicated and he was not at the office? A-—In Court Street. Q-—-Where on Court Street? A— At the Vienna Cafe. 1 won't say he was intoxicated then. Q—Was he a frequenter of the Vie Cafe? A-—I can't say becauge I not myself so I can’t <a Q there? twice. Q—Wha occasions? Q--Do Ex « QCancilla? Q—Where? office. Q—At 123 E. Market? is right. { Q—When Mr. Baker told you not te worry about the Welfare Bill | that that matter was taken care | of was Peter Cancilla with him at that time? A-—No, sir, Q-—You have seen Pete Cancilla | at vour office, haven't you? A—Yes, sv. Q—When? A—Been there two or three times relative to adoption of some children that his father- | in-law was interested in. Q-—-Have vou seen him there the last week or 10 days? A—I was away from the office from last Saturdavy noon on antili yesterday morning. Q—When did vou last cate with Mr. Baker? A-—Well, sometime the middle of last week. QR--Did vou have any communicaith Mr. Joel Baker on Monof this week? A—No, sir, I ,» not, in the city. Do you know anvone in vour office? A—Pardon me, 1 would like to make an explanation ! hare, 1 was away from the city | due to ihe doath of my father. Q—Do you know of anyone in vour office that had any communication with Baker? A--No, Q—O0n I was ot here, Q—Since Mr,

would be

n nn

him there

have seen seen him

Well, A

vou 1 have was he with on those | A—Myself and Mr. Lay. vou know Pete Cancilla?

1o ht

A ht. see Mr. Baker with Pete A—Yes, sir. A—In

~Lve front of qur

A—That

communi- |

tion w aay "

a oO

~ ~

Joel

Monday?

A -1 can't say.

feem your office, do you know of |

anyone in your office that has had any cormmunication with him? A—No, sir, Q—Da yon A—Yes, sir. C—IWhat position does over there? A-—She was {x Mr. Baker. Q—Ilas she given you tion as to whether or not er would he away from for any length of time? sir, Q-—Have you access to Mr, Joe! records in his desk? A—

know Miss Church?

she hold secrefary

informaMr. Bakthe office A—No,

Balrs No. sir Q—Do you know of any atiempt any papers from Mr.

Ave

WO 17IDNoVe Dak-r's desk A—No, sir. Q—Dyo you know whether or not Ar Baker returned to the Welfare office by direct information or afier the reported attack en Wayne Cov? A-—1 do not know. I was not here. 1 Xnow o! none, Q-—M:. Spencer, directing your ptrentisn again to this conversa{ton that you related wherein Mr Raker told vou that the bill would be takan cae of, will you just relate that coavarsation in detail, please. A—No, I can't because sore wasn't any dofiniie statement «hoot it. Tt was my impression tat there was going to be some emendments to the bill, Q—Haw Jid you get that pression? A understood afr. Baker rnat Mr. Cov had some ararndments for the bill. O—What did Mr. Baker say about teese proposed amendments? A—

im-

-1

one explanation

wili would cause |

| partment? Q—And by whom are they ap-

Baker's departure |

since his departure? |

from

IT did not know the detail of them all Q-—What did he say about as to his opinion of them? Well, 1 inferred that they satisfactory, Q—Did he say that they were satisfactory? A—~—No. He did not. Q--\What did he say about them? A--ITe said that

Av were

{hat everything was going to be taken care of, that the amendments would probabiy be put through and nat to let the employecs worry at ail, Q—"That is, you mean that Mr. [Coy's amendments would be put through? A--That was what I in{erred. Q—Did you see the amendments yourself? A—No, sir, I have never even seen the bill. Q-—Never saw the bill? Sir, Q—Have you sten a printed copy of the DI? A—NO, sir. Q--Now you were noi specific in vour answer as to this conversation

A-—No,

tire time when he said this bill

would be taken care of. had been discussing other matiers, K—How did that conversation happen to come up? gavting ready to leave. Q -What was that, if yon recail? A—] can’t be positive of the day, but 1 think it was on Wednezday. R--On Wednesday last week? A Wednes=dav & week ago now, Q-—-Where was he going? A--I do not know, Q-—-\What vou recall? afternoon Q—Did he ever talk about Rep. Downey to vou? A--No, sir. Q--Did he ever mention his name? A—No, sir. Q-—Did vou Downey? A-—-Nao, sir.

time of dav was it, if

A--It was late in the

ever talk te Rep.

O—Did you ever contact any one | in the State House or in the Legis- | lature or any member of the legis- | lature, concerning this bill? A—No, |

sir. Q—How many emploves de you have over there in the Welfare DeA—385, 1 believe.

pointed? A—By the Director.

Q—And who was the Director? |

A-—Mr. Baker was. Q—Now, he appoints, or did appoint those without any help from any one else, is that right? A— With the approval of the Board. Q—So they all owe their positions to Mr. Baker, isn't that right? A— Well or to the Board indirectly. Mr. Baker made the selection. Q—Do you know Miss Farran? A— A—I know a Miss Ferran. Q—Did you ever see her over there? at one time as an investigator.

Q—When was she employed? A— | Well, T could not tell you exactly. ! Q—When did she cease employ- |

ment? A—In January, I think. Q—Of this year? A-—Yes. Q—Where has she been employed since that time? A—I have no knowledge, I do not know. Q—Do you know the reason why she left the employment over there? A—No, sir. Q—Did you see her over there since her employment terminated? A—No sir. Since the afternoon that she was discharged she has been in the place.

Q—Who discharged her? A—Well, |

I did indirectly.

Q—Did this discharge meet with | in-

Mr. Baker's approval? A—He structed me to discharge her.

Q-Did you see Mr. Baker and |

Miss Farran together at any subsequent time since her discharge? A— No, sir. Q—Does she live in Indianapolis, do you know? know. I could not say. dently did or she would not have been employed, I can say that. WITNESS EXCUSED.

FRED LAY

Q—You may state your name to |

the committee. A—Fred L. Lay. Q—-What is vour business, Mr. Lay? A-—I am a supervisor of the Depariment of Public Marion County. Q—How long have vou been a supervisor? 15, last. Q—May, last? think was the date. Q—You were appointed by whom? A—Mr. Baker, Q-—As supervisor what are your duties? plaints in the department from dissatisfied pensioners, and supervise the investigators in this manner: | That hefore any case may be turned | down for failure to mest the age [ Yequircement or residence requirement, they have to bring the case to me, | possible source of verification has | been overlooked. Q--As supervisor of that partie ular department, were vou quite often in conference with Mr. Baker? A-Yes, Q—Daily? A--No, not daily. Q-—-You worked there each da | A-=Yes. sir, | Q—Would he be at the office each ' day” A-I think not. He would be there a lot of (imes and I would | not even know he was there.

| Q—You did not work ciose to his loffice or in connection with his office, You had a separate office? A— | No, my desk was out in the general office, but about as far away from Mr. Baker's office as you could get |a desk, I guess. Q—Did you ever confer with him when he had been drinking? Yes. Q--How often? { know. Mr. Baker and I are personal friends. I see him quite often. Q—Wecll, you see him quite often | when he is under | Hquor? A-—Well, that; that—it is hard to draw a line where intoxication is.

A—PFifteenth, I

fare Depariment when he had been drinking? A-—The only time I ever | saw him there when he had been

"drinking was after office hours.

Q—Would there be a number of

emplovees there? A-—Nn, not a

number, Q—Scveral? A-—-Well, heads of departments, Q—Wbhen did you remember an occasion ike that? A-—It has been quite a long while ago. Q—When was the last time vou saw Mr. Baker, Mr. Lay? A—Monday night. | Q--Monday night? A—Evening. | Q-—Where did you see him Mon-

the

just

them |

there was noth- | ing for the office to worry about

that vou had with Mr. Baker as to |

A—I can't | recali the conversation because we |

A—He was

A—Yes. She was employed |

never |

A—No, I do not | She evi- |

Welfare, |

A—I believe since May |

A—Well, I handle all com- |

I go over it and see that no |

A—|

A—Well, 1 don't |

Q-—Would he be about the Wel- |

day evening? A—At the Democratic |

| Club, | Q=Where is the Democratic Club? | A=319 N. Pensylvania St, Q--Did yon talk with him? ' Yes, sir,

Q—What was the conversation?

| A—=Weil, T can’t remember a great deal of it. 1 only talked with him labout 10 or 15 minutes Q—Tell us what was said. lean't remember what was said.

LS Tt

{was about the aitack ea Mr. Cov. |

land Joel told me about it, I asked him what had happened. He said | that he was over here, and all of a | sudden he heard somebody scream,

| and when he got up to where it was, |

A—He said “Have they I remember his

any idea? caught Pete vet?” asking about that.

Q—He asked Tuesday night

| A whether they had caught Pete, and |

| Wednesday night whether they had caught Pete? A—VYes. Q—What did vou tell him? said not that 1 knew, Q—Did vou try te ascertain whether they had caught Pete? A— | No.

A—-1

RQ—Had you seen Pete? A~-I had not. Q—Did you have any communications after Wednesday night?

‘he heard that Pete had hit Mr. Coy, No.

{and he said that—I asked him if | He said |

he knew where Pete was. no, he went back to the office, and {he hadn't seen him since. | Q-—Did he say anything further {about it? A—No. That is about all. | Q—How long was he there at the | Democratic Club? A—1 think 15 or [20 minutes, maybe a hall hour, { something like that. | Q—Anybody cise with him? A— { No. Q—What time of the night was it? A—I believe it was around supper time, around 8. Q—Did you see him come in there? A—No, I didn't see him come in. Q—Was he there when you got there? A-—I think he was, Q—Did he sce him leave there? A-Yes. O—Did he leave with anvone? A— No, he went by himself. Q—Did vou have an appointment to meet him there? A—~—Nao, sir. Q—How did you happen to go there? A—1 am there most of the time. ¥ keep the books for them. Q—Did Peter Cancilla ever hang ‘about that club? A—Yes, sir. Q—1Is he a regular member? Yes, sir. . Q—Was he there Monday? A—No, sir. R Was he there last Saturday? A—Last Saturday? Q—VYes. A—I don't believe he was. Q—Was he there last Sunday? A —I don’t know about Sunday. { Q—You are open on Sunday? A— No, it is locked up.

A—

| Q—Is he there quite often, Mr. |

Baker? A—Yes, there quite a bit. times. Q—Leave

times. . Q—Did you hear either Peter

Cancilla or Joel Baker say anything about this Welfare Act that was pending before the Legislature? A

together? A—Some-

—I don't believe I heard them say

anything about it. I know that Joe was against the bill. Q—How did you know that? A— | T knew he was working against it. He told me he was. Q—What did he say to you about that subject? A—Well, IT can’t say in the exact words, but the gist of | it, what I gleaned from it was this:

ties and that we would all be out of a job. Q—Did he tell you yon would have to take an examination and become qualified before you could work or something of that sort? A—No, he didn't say that. Q—He said you would all kicked out? A-—Yes, would lose our jobs. He didn’t say kicked out. Q—When you got your job as su- | pervisor, did you have anybody to recommend you? A-—No. | Q=You have known Joel a long | time? A—Yes, we went to school together. Q—He just put vou on? Q—You never went before Board? A—No. Q—None of the Board were asked anything about it, that you know | of. A—Not that I know of. | Q—Handled wholly by Joel? That's right. Q—Now, you have around that Democratic | times drinking, haven't you? Well, yes. . Q—And that is a condition that | has existed for a number of years? | A=Well, I wouldn't say a number | of years, maybe the last couple of years. | Q=Prior to his appointment to | the Board? A—Yes, sir. Q—You say the last time you saw him was when? A-—Last Monday night. Q—Did he tell you where he was going?? A--Yes. Q—Where did he say he was going? A--Home. Q—And he left alone? Sir. Q—You never saw Cancilla at all Monday? A—No, sir. Q—You haven't seen him since that time? A—No, sir. Q—Have you received any com-

A—Yes. the

seen Club many

| | | |

A—Yes,

A—From whom? Q—Joel Baker? Q—Last Monday night. Q—When was it? A-—I talked to him on the phone. Q—When? A—Tuesday night. | Q==Tuesday of this week? Yes, sir. Q—Where was he | talked to him over the phone? ! He said he was howe. | Q—What did he say {o you? | He wanted to know how everything was going along. I said all right. as far as I knew. had caught Pete, nothing in the papers about it. Q--You hac heen { papers? A—Oh, yes. Q—Where were you when Baker | called you? A—When? Q—Tuesday night. Democratic Ciub. Q—You say Baker was home? A —He said he was home. I didn't know waere he was. | Q—What time of night was it? {| A—Oh, around 7 or 8 o'ciock, something like that. Q@—Did he come cratic Club last night? | 200. | Q—Did he communicate with you any more? A~I think again

A—At the

i |

A—He did

| |

the influence of | Wednesday night. I wouldn't say

Q—When was the next time? | —I haven't heard from his sin ' that time. Q—You haven't heard? A—Na. | Q—Didn't you say Wednesday | night? A—Yes. Then you asked | me when was the next time, and I | haven't heard from him since that. | Q—Where was he Wednesday night? A—He said home. Q-—-Where were you? A—At the Democratic Club. | Q—What happened Wednesday { night? A--He called again and | wanted to know how things were getting along, and practically the same conversation. | Q—What was sald other than | practically the same conversation? A—I can’t remember what was said. Q—Can you give the committee

Q--Come together? A—Yes, some- |

that the bill would give the State | | Department control of all the coun- |

be |

Joel |

A= |

munication from him of any sort?

A— | when you Ae He asked if they!

I said there was!

scanning the |

to the Demo-!

A i

Q—Receive any letters? A—No.

| | No, | Q—Have you seen him? A—No, sir.

sir.

| Q—Got any idea where he is? A—

| No, sir. | Q—Any information? A—No, sir.

Q-—Any member of his family talk |

| to you since then? A--No, sir. | Q—All right. What did you do be{fore you became supervisor over | there? A—Immediately hefore that

I was clerk of the Criminal Court |

of Marion County,

| Q=You were over there while Joal was chief probation officer? A—VYes, sir. Q—You work in the same Democratic organization with Joel Baker? A-.1 don’t know what vou mean by that. Q-—What precinct and ward do you live in? A—1 live in the Second Precinct of Washington Township outside, Q—You have heen an active worker under the Baker organization, haven't yon? A—No, sir. Q—Never had been? A-—No, sir. Q@—Never took any part in Democratic polities in Marion County? A—-According to what you mean, active part. Q—I want to know what mean? A—I have worked at polls on one or two occasions. Q—What did you do last summer

vou

with reference to political activities? |

A—Nothing.

Q—What did vou do two years! A—I think I worked at the |

ago? polls then, passing out literature. Q—What did you deo during the time previous to the last Democratic convention? A—You mean in reference to the convention? Q—Yes. A—Nothing. Q—You knew Joel Baker had an office over in the Claypool Hotel, didn’t you? A—During the convention. Q—Before the convention during the convention? A—VYes. Q—Yoa were there, Mr. Lay, weren't you? A—1 think I was up there one night for maybe 15 or 20 minutes, Q--You knew what was going o.. as far as his political activity was concerned, didn't you? A—Oh, ves,

and

I knew he was trying to get votes

for Mr. Townsend. Q—You, as a friend of Joel's were trying to do what vou could to help him? A—No, I was doing nothing political. Q—Nothing political at all? No.

Q—Nobody over there ever do anyI!

thing political? A-—-Not that know of. Q-—-No former henchmen of Joel Baker even working in that depart-

ment? A-—Not that I know of.

Q—You never have known during |

the past campaign of any political

activity of anybody in vour depart- | | ceive, Mr. Lay?

ment? A—Absolutely not.

Q—Did you take any examination | . | employed, I believe you stated over |

for your job? A—No, sir.

Q—You know that it was report- | cd that Mr. Baker was operating | the Marion County Welfare Depart- | don’t |

ment on the merit system, you? A-—Npg, sir,

Baker's appointment? A—Yes,

I was employed on May 15th. Q—Do you recall a

made to the press of Indian-

the merit system? do. Q—You recall that statement? A —Yes, sir. Q—Do you know of any examinations being held? sir.

A—No,

fare Department? not mean that. Q—No, I guess he did not mean that. That is right. where the Vienna Cafe is? sir.

A—No,

Q—You go there once in a while? |

_ when? | 221 have not been in the Vienna

A—Yes. |

Cafe in three or four months.

you? A-—Yes.

Q—Seen Pete Cancilla there? A— |

Yes.

{ day within the last week? A—I have not been for the last two or three | months. Q—Who was at the Democratic Club with Joel Baker the night that

you talked fo him after this Coy |

incident? A-No one. Q—No one? A—No. | Q—Was House Senate Bill 173 discussed? A—No, sir. Q—Did he tell you previous to | Monday of this week that the mat- | ters in 173 were going to be taken {care of and you need not worry | about it? A-—No, sir. | Q-—FHe never told you anything | about that? A—He did not. | Q—You did not know there was (such a bill pending in the Senate? A—I knew there was a Welfare bill pending. Q—But the people around your department were not greatly concerned with that, were they? A — No, sir.

Q—Yet, did you hear Miss Church |

Q—There was no fear or commo- |

tion among the employees in your | department or any other depart- | ment about the consequence of 173? | A=Not that I know of. | Q—You know no reason, do vou, | why Joel Baker should remain away {now from the city of Indianapolis, |if he is away? A—I do not. Q—He never told you that he was going to leave the city and come

Q—Did you ask anybody? A--No. |

a—|

Q—Do you know where he is? A— |

the |

| family?

statement |

merit |

| Q—In the Marion County Wel- | he did |

Do you know | A—Yes,

Q—Seen Joel Baker there, haven't |

Q—You in the Vienna Cafe any |

A—He did

back at any future time? not. Q—When he talked to you on Wednesday night yon knew then that Joel Baker was out as far as the Welfare Department was concerned, didn't you? A-Yes, sir, Q—Yet he called you up and asked you how everything was going along? A-—That is right. Q—And had they caught Pete yet? A—That is right. Q—You were not in any better position to know whether they had

caught Pete so far as you know, | than Joel Baker was, were you? A-—

No. Q-—Probably not as good? AI | got my information from the newspapers, Q—And so far as you know wherever Joel was he had access to the | newspapers? A—So far as I know. | Q-—Now, Mr. Lay, did you expect us to believe that all you talked | about to Joel Baker was how are things going to the Welfare Depart- | ment and if they caught Pete Can- | cilla? A—I can’t help what you be- | tieve, I don’t know what your | name is. | Q—Andrew—-— A—I don’t know | what you believe or what you don’t believe, but what I am telling you is the truth. Q—And he called you Tuesday night and asked you that? A-Yes, sir Q—And again on night and asked vou that? is right.

Q—And that is the extent of the

conversation? A-—That is right.

Q—Do you know Martin Downey? |

A—I do not.

Q—On either of these two tele- | phonic conversations you and Baker | had that is about all you discussed |

is how are things going at the office

and whether they have captured

Peter Cancilla or not? A—Yes. Q—Ever ask you if you had learned anything about Wayne Coy's condition or how he was or anything of that sort? A—No. Q—Did he ask you whether or not [there were any policemen around | the office during the day time? A— Yes. Q—He did ask that? A—Yes, Q—Did he ask you who they were looking for? A—No. Q—He asked you about police on both times when he called you, didn’t he? A—I believe he did.

Q—Did he tell you on either one |

of those conversations where you could reach him if you needed to? A—Yes, he said he was home, Q—Did he tell you to call him in the event anything happened of any consequence? A—No, he said if you want to get ahold of me I will be at home. Q—Now since that last conversation the other night, Wednesday night to be exact, have you made iy effort to communicate aim? A-1I have not.

Q—Haven't called his house? A— |

No Q—Haven't talked to any of his A—No. Q—Where does Joel here in Indianapolis? on Beverly Drive. Q-—-Where is that in olis? A-—I believe it 51st and 52d Street, north.

Baker

Indianap-

Q—Do you happen to know or

have any information of what sal-

ary Joel Baker drew as director of | h the Marion County Welfare De- | pointments on recommendation of | | Mr. Baker?

partment? A—I understood he drew $4000 a year. Q—S84,000 a vear? A—Yes. Q—And what salary do you reA—$2000. Q—And you and he were both in the Criminal Court here in this | city? A-—Yes. Q-—Do you know what Baker drew | over there by way of salary? An No, I do not. Q—Something less than $1800 a | year, wasn’t it? A—I would not | know, Q—Were you Chief Clerk over in | Criminal Court? A—No, I was a | deputy clerk under Glenn Ralston | Q—Then does the Criminal] | Court have its own clerk beside? | A—It does, yes. Q—When you saw him up at the | Democratic Club on Monday night | did Joel seem to be excited or wor- |

BERNICE CHURCH

--You may state your name to the Committee? A—Bernice Church, | Q—What is your business? A— | Secretary to the Director of the Marion County Welfare Department. | Q—How long have you been Sec- | retary to the Director of the Marion | County Welfare Department? A— Since the Department opened up about the middle of April last year. Q—You still occupy that posi- | tion? A—Yes. | Q—As secretary to the Director | of the Marion County Welfare De- | partment what are your duties, | Miss Church? A—Well, the or- | | dinary duties of a secretary and | I pass through my office the cases | for final o. k. before they are taken into the Director's office, that is, | the assistants in the three different |

have charge of the personnel file, have general supervision of the office under Mr. Spencer. Q—The director of the Marion | County Welfare Department up until the present week was Joel | Baker since the time it was estab- | lished, is that right? A—Yes. . @—You were secretary for him | after his appointment by the local |

| there every

Wednesday | A—That |

with |

live | A—He lives |

is between |

| A-~-Only in special cases

iscussed, |

Welfare Board up until the time he was ousted or discharged

| through an act of the Legislature?

A—Yes, sir. Q—While Mr. Baker was director of the Welfare Department was he | there each day? A--Not every day. Q—Not every day? .i—No. Q—About how much of the time would he be there? A—Well that is hard to say. (He was usually day but occasionally there would be two or three days he would not come in, except when he was out of town. Q—When he was there during | | the day how long a time did he spend at the Department? A—Oh, anywhere from half an hour to four or five hours. Q—Four or five hours? A.—Yes, Q—What would he do when he | was there at the department? A— | Well, he was there to take up mat- | ters that the office people could not | handle, matters of policy and | things of that sort. Q—Did he have any other public duties or public functions that | he was carrying out at the same time he was director of the Welfare Department? A-—Not that I know of. Q—You don’t know about that? A—No. Q—Do you know hy sight a man

| | |

| by the name of Peter Cancilla? Yeu

| Yes, I do.

| fare Department? A—Yes. Q—How often would he be there | at the Welfare Department? A— Oh, perhaps two or three times a | week. Q—What particular duty did he | have about the Welfare Department? A-—Not any. Q—Well, what would he he doing there? A—Just a friendly call | with Mr. Baker. Q—Mr, Baker? Q—He came in times a week and Baker? A—Yes. Q—Would they presence? A-—Sometimes.

A—-Yes, two or talked

three to Mr.

talk in your

A—Well, Mr. Cancilla would usually, I would not say usually, he would often sit by while we would discuss matters concerning the office and the personal

I did not hear. Q—Discuss matters of appaint- | ments? A—I don't recall that he was ever there when appointments were discussed? Q—Did you ever hear Cancilla discuss the matter of appoint-

A—No, I never did. Q—Who was your Welfare | Board, Miss Church? A—Mrs. Ruddell, Mrs. Wooling, Mr. Tripp, Mr. Belzer and Mr. Slack. Q—Who was chairman of your | Board? A—Judge Slack. Q—Were they ever there at Welfare Department? A—Yes. Q—How often would they | there? A—About once a month. @Q@—And holding the regular board meetings? A—Yes. Q—Did you sit in on the Board | meetings? A-—Yes. | @—Did Mr. Baker sit in at the | Board meetings? A—Yes. Q—Did you keep the records of the Board meetings? A—Yes. Q—And the Board made the ap-

the

A—You mean em- | ployees? Q—Yes. A—No. Q—Who made the appointments? A—Mr. Baker.

Q—Mr. Baker alone? A-—Yes.

Q—Weren't they passed on by the

Board? A-—No.

Q@-—The Board had nothing to do |

with the appointments? A-—No. Q—That was left solely to the dictor? A—Yes. Q—-Never approved by the Board? A—No. I wish to qualify that last statement. He did discuss about fifteen or twenty employees right at the first with the Board. meeting I think was in May. Q—Right after the organization of the Board in April? A—Yes. Q—With that exception the employment of everybody in Marion County Welfare Department

was left up to Mr. Baker? A-—Yes.

Q—How many employees do you have in that department? A--85. Q—Well, when it came to the matter of determining the allow-

ances that would be made to individual pensioners or those that

were given relief, who passed on that? A-—I gave the cases the final 0. K. before they were taken into Mr. Baker's office. He did not always look at them, however. Q—Was that left up largely you, Miss Church? A-—Well,

to we

| have a system over there whereby | two or three people see the cases | before they go for final disposition |

and they come to me last. Q—Well, would you take up the

matter with Mr. Baker as to how | jt

much pension should be granted an applicant for old age assistance? where 1 thought there was something the | matter with the case as it looked to

me, | Q—But generally those things were passed upon without his indi- | vidual directions, is that right? A—

Yes. | Q—Let me ask you this question,

not know. | Q—You would not know? A—I | mean I have seen him when I thought he was that way. Q—Did you see him there when you thought he had been drinking? A—Once or twice. Q—How long ago was that? A— | Oh, sgweral months ago. Last fall sometime. Q—Were any of the Board members present? A—I don't recall | that. f Q@—Did this man Cancilla ever sit | in at a meeting of the Board mem- |

| bers? A—No. |

Q@—He was not there when they | were meeting? A-—No. Q—Who was there at the meet- | ing of the Welfare Board other | than you and Mr. Baker? A—Just the members of the Board. Q—Just the members of the Board, you and Mr. Baker? A— That, is right. Q—And you made up the record,

departments that we have and I is that right, Miss Church? A— where Mr. Baker was. 1 told him

That is right. |

Q@—-Were you appointed at the

(same time that Mr. Baker was ap- |

pointed? A-—No, I was not. Q—What position had you held | prior to your appointment to the Welfare Board? A—I was secretary |

|to Miss Walker at the Governor's | called the Democratic Club, T be-

Commission for two years. Q—And you left thai position im-

Q—Was he ever there at the Wel- |

Q—What would they talk about? |

conversations between just the two of them

ments for welfare work with Baker? |

The

the | | Q—You keep in your office, a per- |

mediately to take up this pogition | nervous or anything of that kind?

with the Welfare Board? A--Yes, Q—Now, when is the last time you | saw Mr, Joel Baker? day, Q—What time? 1:30,

A~Last Mon- | Baker had had the bill?

| A=Yes.

Q—Did he tell you how long Mr. A-=No,

R-—Did Mr. Baker ever say any-

A—About 1 or thing the previous week about have ing secured

the bill? A-—Neo, he

Q—Where did you see him? A—At didn't,

the office,

Q--You knew nothing about that?

Q—What was his condition, with |A—No.

reference to having been drinking | or otherwise? drinking that TI could tell. Q-—Was he excited? A-Not particularly. Q—What took place? A—He came | in the office, and he was in the office when I returned from lunch. I | went into his private office, and there was some discussion about what had happened, the attack on Mr. Coy.

Q—Tell us what that discussion |

was. A-—Well, Mr. Baker said he was glad he wasn't there when it happened. Q—Did he tell you he was in the State House? A-—He said he was in the State House, but wasn’t there when it happened. Q—What else was said? A—That | was about all that I recall.

Q—Was there anything about

records or anything said with ref- |

erence to that? ever, Q-—Anything about him the city? A--No. Q —Have you ever seen him since | that time? A-—No.

A-Nothing what-

leaving

| this week?

| Baker first came in?

Q—Was he alone when he came to

A-—He had not been the office on Monday afternoon, or

was Pete Cancilla with him? A-— He was alone. Q-—Have you ever seen Cancilla A-Not since Monday. Q—He was there Monday when A-No, he

{came in afterwards.

Q—Did they leave the office toe gethery A-—-Yes, sir. Q—™d they tell you where they were going? A-—Yes, Q-—Where did they say they were going? A-Said they were going to the Legislature, Q—Did they tell you their pur pose? A-No. Q—Had they been talking together privately before they left the of«fice? A-—No. Q—Were you there while both were there? A-—I was there while both were there, Q—What were they discussing?

|A—I don't remember—nothing in | particular,

Q—Was any discussion about

(coming to the Legislature, and any-

body they were going to see? Any= thing of that sort? A-—-Mr. Baker

Q—Has he ever called you over told me he was coming over here,

the telephone? A-—Yes. Q—-When was that? Tuesday morning. Q—From where? A—I don’t know. Q—What did he say in those tele- | phone conversations? A—First conversation he asked how things were going. I told him all right. Asked if he was coming in. thought he would be in in the afternoon. I asked what disposition he wanted made of his things in his desk. they were, Q—Why did you ask what disposition he wanted made. Had they changed his office Tuesday morning? A—No, I felt T should just do that if another director was coming in. Q--Have things been left as they were? A-—Yes, they were. | Q—Nothing disturbed in his of- | fice? A--No, sir, Q—That was the first conversa- | tion, | sation?

A—Twice

tion was 11:30.

He said to leave them just as |

| told

Cancilla that

that before Mr. I don't remember

came in,

‘anything was said after he came in.

They left together, Q—Did he say anything about having an appointment with Mr.

| Downey going to see him? A-—No.

e said he | urdayv

Q—On last week, Friday or Sat- , did he tell you he was coming

[to the Legislature on those occa-

| sions?

AI don’t recall he did. Q—Did he tell you anything or say in your presence at the office or elsewhere about having an appointment with Mr. Downey? A-<No, he didn’t. Q-=Did he ever tell you Mr. Downey was chairman of the committees that had this particular bill in the House? A--No, he didn’t. Q—Did you know he was? A-~Na, Q-—This was only trip Mr. Downey ever made to the office, so far as you know? A--Yes, sir. Q—Did you look through his files,

When was the second conver- | when the new director came in? Did A-—The second conversa- {you look through Mr. Baker's files

when the new director came in? A-—

Q—What was said in that second | The only file is my file.

conversation? A-—He said he under- | stood Wednesday some policemen | were over there, | have. | Q—What else? was hard to work when you were

being watched so closely every move

you made; made me nervous.

| Q—What did he say? A—He said, | discuss Mr, Coy? or | did,

“Don’t let that bother you,”

I told him we did |

something like that. I don't remem- |

her. Q—Anything farther? | all. | Q@—Had any written communications or telephone conversations with him since that time? ave not, Q-—You haven't received any writ- | ten communication this week, have |you? A--No, I have not,

[11:30 Tuesday morning? A-—No. Q@—-That was the extent of your conversation? A-—Yes, it was. | Q—He has not been about | Welfare Board? A-—No. Q—Does he have any personal be- | longings there? A—Yes. Q—Of what nature? | things in the office, small articles, that belong to him, and some papers |in the desk that are personal papers. Q—He has a personal file there, | does he? A--I have a personal file | In my office, Q—Of his? A-—Yes, sir. | Q—That is there intact? | Q—Ts that concernin | matters or other matters? A—Yes, | well any letter that is filed in the | office that isn’t in the filing depart- | ment is in my file.

the

Yes.

| sonal file where you answer correspondence concerning matters like applications for positions | of that sort? A—VYes, sir.

Q—That is there in the office? A |

—Yes, sir. Q—Miss Church, did he have a

stenographer in addition to you as his secretary? A-—No.

| Q@—Who handled his dictation and

that sort of thing? A-—I did. Q—Did you ever see a copy of the proposed Welfare Bill that was under discussion at that time? A-—No I never did, Q—What, if anything, did Mr. Baker say around the office about | the proposed Senate Bill 173, which we referred to as the Welfare Bill? | A—He told me he was trying to kill I don’t think he ever discussed any particular divisions, only what was in the paper that I had read, Q—Was he over at the office on Monday before this Tuesday you had these conversations? A—Yes, Q—You saw him about noon, but did you see him in the morning? Eg in about 11 a’clock. ie stayed a fe left? AY Y Mien Q—You saw him later when returned from lunch? A—Yes, Q—Had he been in the office Friday and Saturday of last week? A— I think so but I am not sure, Q—Did he ever say anything to you about making a copy of the Senate Bill 173 for his use and scrutiny? A-—No. Q—Did you ever see a copy of the printed bill, the original Senate Bill? You have seen printed bills they use in the Legislature, have you not? A-—No, Q--Did he ever say anything to vou about wanting you to copy the bill before him? A-—No. Q—Do you know Mr. Downey, a member of the House of Representa - tives here? A-—VYes. Q—How frequently has he been to the office? A—Just once that I know of.

you

A—Oh, just |

A—That is |

A<=No, 1 | received.

Q—You did not know where he! was when he called the second time, | Mr. Spencer, we are excusing you

| Q—Mr. Baker hasn't any per-

sonal file there? A--No. Q—Have you ever looked through that file for this bill? A—No, 1

A~I told him it haven't.

Q—Never made an effort to look Tor it? A-No. Q—Did you ever hear Mr. Baker A-No, I never

Q—FEither in your presence or with anyone else? A-No. Q-—Miss Church, there have heen stories that Mr. Baker had required certain pensioners to repay him a certain amount of the pension they Is there any truth in that? A-—Absolutely untrue, so far as I know, Q-—You have no personal knowl edge of that? A-No. MR. ANDREW: Miss Church and

temporarily, may want to recall you both, Hold yourselves to be still under subpena to this committee.

| We will phone you if we want you

back, WITNESS EXCUSED

VIRGIL SHEPPARD

Q—State your name to the Come mittee. A-—Virgil Sheppard. Q—What is your position, Mr, Sheppard? A—I am Acting Direc

| |

and things |

tor of the Division of Public Ase

g welfare | sistance, State Department of Pub-

lic Welfare, and still Acting Direc tor of the Department of Pubs - lic Welfare of Marion County. t Q-—How long have you heen Acting Director of Public Welfare of Marion County? A-Since I took the oath on Wednesday, March 3. Q—Are you acquainted with Joel Baker? A-—Yes, sir. Q—Arve you familiar with Sene

| ate Bill 173, known as the Welfare

| Bill?

A—Yes, sir. Q—Have you had during the time that that was pending before the

| General Assembly any conversation

| with | A—Yes, sir.

Q-—-When was that? A—Last

Monday afternoon.

Q—Did you talk to him on that | occasion? A-—Yes. Q—What was that conversation? | A—He told me Mr. Baker had the bill and he had to get it. Asked

I didn’t know, but I would help him | get in touch with him, { Q—=Did you make some efforts while Downey was there, to get in touch with Mr. Baker? A-—Yes, 1 did. Q—Where all did you call? AI lieve that is the only place I called. Q—Was Mr, Downey excited or

Joel Baker about that bill?

Q—When was that? urday morning, Feb. 27. Q—That is last Saturday morne ing? A-—-Yes, sir. Q@-—Where did you have that conversation? A-—On the second floor of the State House, at the east end of the lunch counter, Q—Wha was Joel Baker with if anyone at that time? A-<He was standing with a lady about 30 years of age, T judge, without a hat. Q—Do you khow who she was? A—I do not. Q—Have you learned since who she was? A-—I have not, Q@—State to the Committee as near as you can recollect, Mr, Sheppard, what that conversation was. A—I put the conversation down on Monday after the Wayne Coy in cident, and will refer to my notes, if I may. Q—All right, go ahead. A When I met Baker, I shook his hand, and said, “Good morning,” to him, and then he said, “Where do you come from, Sheppard? I want to look you up.” I told him I originally came from Ohio. He said, “How long have you been here?” I said, “About five years the State.” “Well, I am going to check into your background, to see who you are,” he stated. 7¥ told him that was all right with me. Then he said, “Have you found anything wrong with the operation of the Marion County Welfare Department?” I replied that my field people haven't reported anything serions, but if I do find something, I will certainly tell you about it.” “Well, IT would expect you to do that,” he said. Then he said, “I want you to know that this Welfare Bill is not going to be passed. Do you want te bet that it will get through?” Just then Al Walsman of the State Tax Commission, joined us, and I said, “I am not a betting man, Baker, and Al Hera knows that.” And Walsman made (Turn to Page 17)

A—On Sate