Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 6 March 1937 — Page 8

LT AGIDAUS

PAGE 8

THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES

SATURDAY, MARCH 6, 1937

Verbatim Testimony Given Before State Investigating Committee

@Q--That was pending in the Sen- 30 or 40 bills, Maybe more than, wanted to contact Joel Baker and I |ate at that time? A-It had been. | that, wanted to get hold of him real| Q-—What legislation in particular Q=-Have you passed out any bills, bad.” He says, “Martin, I do not | was discussed that night? A-—I do or held up any bills without conzulknow where you will try and get not believe there was any legislation tations with the Committee? A] him.” He says, “Maybe you could | discussed that night because of the | That's my practice—to consult my | try the Democratic Club,” so I called | fact as I said, Mr. Baker was a | Committee on bills, there. | little under the influence and I be- | Q=Have you passed out any bills Q-—-Who told you to contact Miss [lieve he was or we were talking jon your name alone in the Com- |

tody for the purpose of copying the the middle door when 1 saw him, same, you took it out of your pocket | near the middle railing. and handed it to him. A--No, I| Q=In any of these conversations didn't. I said to him, “I have the did he ever refer in an unfriendly bill here in my pocket.” He took it | manner to Wavne Coy? A--Not te away from me. It was in with some | me. Not that 1 recall. other bills and papers, and he| Q==8So this attack came ax a sur. reached in my pocket and took them | prise to you? A=It came ax a shock out and picked this bill out and | te me. took it. Q=You know where Cancilla's Q-—You didn't complain? A-—No. | office is located, do you not? A==No, I had no reason to complain, I|Y don’t. I never have been in his

(Continued from Page Four) ing “yom are in a bad way, you | : Q—You said in your examination | 1 told Fred at the time, I says, “I held | are dealing with a bad bunch” and | it was some night session that you held around the city, Mr. Downey? | T did not think 1 was and I do not | went over there to the Harrison tap | A—I1 knew Mr. Cancilla only as an | know. it seems as though people | room? A-—Jt was a public hearing | attorney, | just like to harass one when they on Judiciary A that we had. 1 don’t u Q—As an attorney? Sl are in a spot like that. Tn fact, know. We had a public hearing on | ew 11 let’ k last a mole hill was a mountain to me | 2 bill here last week. You were at | Monday, Vor Sie Hor oo Tene ever | wt that time. . (JH SCENE, on manten, | Whit <3 Q—Well, did you after that time,

Sus ¢ night was that? (Mr, Denton: : on oe ae Nn nd sk Ba ot back? | Mr. Downey, attempt to get in | cWednesday night.™ Wax that [pain at the Harrison Hotel? A— | Over Mr. Cancilla wanting a steak. | mittee Report? AI have. . VOU BEL oUn: Itouch with Baker any more? A—

| Wednesday night, then it was ' : ms i Q—Well strike that, Q—Without consulting the other | A—I got back late Sunday night. I did | Wednesday night that 1 met them. Why the hihi Jou] Baker Was Q—They were kidding the waitress | members of the Committee? A—

A-—That is

’ o

Q-—Sunday night? A-—Yes. Q—Did you see Cancilla or Baker Sunday night? A—No, sir Q—Neither one? A-—No, sir

[| Q—What was your next attempt? | AI called at Joel Baker's office | in the afternoon and saw his secre-

Q—Did vou make anv attempt to | tary, Miss Church, and asked if Joel

get vour Senate Bill 173 Sunday? | was anyplace about.

A—No, sir.

Q—Now, Monday morning when |

She said he | had been in and just left. That was in the forenoon and she would

the session opened you did not have | get in touch with Joel and get the

the bill? A—That is right. Q—Did you make any attempt to get the bill Monday morning? had the telephone girl phone Mr, Baker's office. Q—Did you get in contact with him by telephone? A-—1 talked to a young lady over there who told me Mr. Baker was not in. That was

about 10 o'clock in the morning. She |

would have Mr. Baker call me or communicate with me that morning. Q—Do vou know the young lady’s name? A-—I talked to this voung lady over the telephone. She informed me she was Mr. Baker's secretary. I later met her, Q-—Can you tell us what her name was? A-—I believe her name is Miss Church. She is employed as his secretary in the welfare office. I met her on the afternoon of the affair, I believe it was Monday afternoon

Bill, | Baker over the telephone to have | { Joel contact me to get this bill back. | Pete Cancilla?

| bill back to me. I called several people whom I knew that knew Mr,

A—1 Baker and kept calling everybody |

all day Baker. At learned that to his home so I called out there [and I spoke to Mrs. Baker and 1 | asked her if Joel Baker was home. She told me he was not. She said | Mr, Baker will be home mm a halt hour. Call her back. At that time I told Mrs. Baker what the circumstances were, that Mr, Baker [ had the bill, that IT was responsible, that I had to answer to the entire House in the morning about this In fact, 1 pleaded with Mrs.

12 o'clock that night I

long trying to locate Mr. |

Mr. Baker had gone |

I bumped into them, 1 believe that | might. That night as 1 recall 1} ‘met when I went in there 1 | met Senator Poriteus and Nenaior | Cleary, there was a party of four | there as 1 walked in. They were sitting at a table, 1 was going in | after the hearing. I wanted to go | in and have a drink. | Q—Was Baker and Cancilla | sitting at a table? A-—They were When [1 walked up they said, “Downey join jus and have a drink,” which I did. ®Q—And vou discussed Senate Bil! 173 that night? A--No, I would not say that we did. I could not say. | Q-—Didn't you tell in this exami- | nation that they told you that night [that the bill had passed the Senate? A—If that is what I said. If it was | Wednesday night. They said it had | passed the Senate or wanted a copy. | Q-They told vou they wanted a

| sitting over to the side, yes.

| copy of it? A—They told me they |

| wanted to see the Senate amend- | ment. R—How long known

Pete

have you A—I met

| When I called back at 12:15 that | 1936.

| no one would answer. I called again | who assaulted Tipton Blish, reporter | | to ascertain that I was calling the {on The Indianapolis Times?

when I went over looking for Joel |

Baker at his office. Q—Now did Mr. Baker call you that morning? A—No, he did not. Q-—Did you see him that morning? A-—I did about 11:15. Q—Where did vou see him? I met him outside in the hallway. It was about 11:15, Q—Anybody with him? Cancilla was with him. Q—Did you have any conversation with him? A-—I called him |

11 o'clock or |

A—Mr.

over to the side and said I wanted | that?

| would not answer. I IT gave up all hope of ever contact- | story? { ing Mr. Baker or any one regarding | hear anything about that story, I | this bill.

| Downey? | eratic Club over here.

night the phone Kept on ringing and

right number. The telephone still

Q--Now, you say that that after-

Baker, vou thought | with where he | would be, who did you call, Mr.

A—1 called the Demo-

people

| |

Q—Democratic Club, where is]

A—1 understood Joel Baker |

the bill back and he said I would | would be there and 1 calied a Miss |

have it in a few minutes. Q—Did he have it with him?

1 did not see the bill on his person | of Joel Baker. thing

anything? | they are acquaintances of Mr. Can- | this s

at that time. Q—Did Cancilia A-—No, sir. the influence of intoxicants at the! time. Q—-He was, you would drunk? A-—WeN, in a stupor. Q—In a stupor? A-—Yes. Q—That was A-—-Monday morning, Q@—How did he talk about matter, Downey, when you him for the bill? A—-Well,

say

this

here

| Ferrin at the Harrison Hotel, whom | A— | 1 understood was an acquaintance |

But Baker was under | tilia and or some one,

asked | had

now, I received a call from Wayne |

Coy who was in at the time in the Speaker's office, and I went in and talked to Wayne Coy. I would like to give you the whole facts on this. Q@—All right give us all of them. A—Wayne asked me, he says, “When are you going to get the bill out?” I says, “Wayne, I have acked for a public hearing.” I says, “I would like to have a public hearing on this Tuesday night, figuring that Tuesday night would be ample time for the bill to go to second reading and be enrolled, give ample time to pass the bill if there

I do not know any- |

about that. I know that |

Q—What understand

is that name? A-—I it is Ferrin. That is

say, the name 1 know the person hy,

at the Harrison | A—Somebody at the Har-

Q-—Somebody Hatel?

Monday morning? | vison Hotel,

Q—Did you her?

get in contact with | A] asked that party if they | seen Joel Baker. They said | they had not. Q—You did have conversation! with her? A-I had a conversation. | They did not see Joel. I went to the | Harrison taproom and asked if Joel Baker had been there, was informed that he had been there immediately |

[after the assault with Mr. Cancilla |

{and that

land then had left

they had been there for! 15 minutes arter the assault there. That is | the last trace I believe I got of Joel | Baker until late that night until I!

about

| found out from certain sources that |

the State Police had,

as I under-| stood, said that he had been at his | home and I atteaipted to call him!

were any changes or anything to | and contact him there.

be done.” Wayne sort of, I would not say turned up his nose, but he says, oh, he says, "That is not necessary,” he says, “The bill, as it is, [ believe is all right.” back to my seat. Then about 10

| |

Q—Did you get in contact with | him at all, Mr. Downey? A-—I have | not. Q—Have you seen him,

A—No, I]

I went out | have not. | | Q—Since that time?

A—Or if I|

or 15 minutes after that I stepped | would have seen him I would have |

out into the lobby and I received a | brought him in. | When I re- |

call to go downstairs. ceived the call to go downstairs I did not know what it was all about

but before going down I said to the |

party

just

who was with me, I says, come with me a minute, 1 want to get a bill.” I says to Joel, I says, “Joel, give me the Welfare Bill. I have got to go downstairs.” I don't know at that time whether he said “go to hell” or what he said but it was sort of a mumble. wanting to cause any disturbance at the time I said I will go downstairs and figured I will take care of

this fellow in my own way when I | was |!

come back upstairs. So I downstairs probably 20 minutes to one-half hour and I came upstairs, got. off the elevator and I noticed a crowd across the hall. I thought it was some school or something going ‘on over there. I paid no attention and upon going inside I Jearned that Wayne Coy had been assaulted, s0 I went out to get more of the facts. I went out to look for Joel Baker. find Joel any place around. Then upon learning the facts I went in and I sat down in the House and I thought things over for a while and I figured this wgs an awful mess. I began to wonder who I was dealing with, the Kind of a fix T was in. 1 did not know what would happen to me and I called one of the membars on the committee and said, “Well, IT don't know,” I says, “I am in a mess here.” I says, “I don't like the looks of things” and told

Not |

I could not |

Q—Mr. Downey, where do vou live | (in the City of Indianapolis? A--1 live at the Claypool Hotel. Q—Mr. Baker visited vou there in (your room at the Claypool Hotel? | A~—~Mv. Baker has called on me al the Claypool Hotel several times and called me at the hotel

Q—During this session? A—Well, |

About that time |

| Pete Cancilla? | knew them to be, as I thought, a | Welfare Department. You do know |

| Q=You knew he was the man A~I | did not. Q—You had never heard that

A—I do not recall as I did

was not acquainted with the affairs going on in Indianapolis and our local paper carried no story about it. Did not pay any attention to it. Q—Did you ever understand the connection between Joel Baker and A—Why, I only

couple of friends.

Q—You knew that Cancilla was | When I went over to her office to | not connected officially with the | ask her for the bill from Mr. Baker

Marion County Welfare Board, didn't you? A—That is what 1 understood, that Cancilla was an attormey and a friend of Joel Baker. Q—Did he exhibit any interest in bill? A—Oh, not outside of saying that he did not like to see the bill go over, outside of whatever Joel wanted in it—Mr. Baker, Q~—As near as you can recall now, what was the exact conversation with you and Baker and Cancilla regarding this bill? A—As I recall they wanted to see the Senate amendments to the bill. And later

they wanted me to prepare amend- |

ments, as 1 recall, to remove Marion and Lake County from the features of the bill, R—What was there about the bill that they did not like? A-—The exammation or appointment—the merit system. Q—Mr., Coy's name mentioned in vour conversation with them? A— No, sir. Q—Did they ever mention to vou

any political differences that they | might have in the Marion County |

Democratic set-up? A—No, I did not pay any attention to that. That

is, I do not recall them mentioning |

any had. Q-—Did they indicate to you in any way by conversation or other-

differences they might have

| wise, that Coy wanted their dis-

charge or wanted Joel Baker's job? A--I did not know that. Q—He did not indicate that to vou at all? A-—he did not indicate that to me. If 1 had known that I weuld have seen that that Bill would not have come to my committee because I would not want to get mixed up in any factional political fights.

Q—You knew there was a politi- | A—Not to my

cal fight, didn’t you? knowledge. Q—Between the Marion County

Mr. Baker called on me once during | groups? A—I knew there was a cou-

| this session or twice that I recall. [ple of factions down here. ' 1 Q—He has been at your room at| e Claypool Hotel with Pete Can- | A—On one ecca- |

[th | cilla, hasn't he? Ision they have. Q—When was that? A—Last week. Q—What day? A—I could not re- | call the date, Mr. Andrew. Q—That day requests of you regarding Senate | Bill 173? A—I would say that he | discussed the matter of a public | hearing on it. I did not have him stay with me because of the fact that at that time he called in my room he was rather unruly boisterous. Q—Was Baker in favor of this | bill or opposed to it? A—Baker, as

I understand it, was opposed to the |

| features of the bill as far as Marion County were concerned. Q—And he told you that when that bill was handed down he wanted it? A-—No, he did not say | he wanted it. He said he wanted to see the Senate amendment. Q—He wanted to see the bill? A—Yes, he wanted to see the bill. Q—And he talked to vou abhont how he could get the bill? A—No,

him if anything occurred to me to not that night because he was un.

break open my desk, get out all the bills, report them out and then I decided to go to Ed Stein and I went to Ed, to'd Ed the predicament

der the influence of liquor, Q—Well, he made ararngements

with you that night to meet vou | the next mornring and get the bill? | | A—{ would not say that he made |

and

1 was in. In fact, T was astounded. | ; , I did not realize what I had i ce said we wou doing or what was going on. In| @_Di4 vou send s fact, the shock of seeing a man | speaker Stein to ey Agi assaulted in the hallway. They told | ferred to Judiciary A? A—I did not me at the time that Wayne had his | gir. : eve knocked out and his skull frac- Q—How soon after vou ‘received tured and the rumor was about that bill from the Filing Clerk did that he had been assaulted by a [you leave the House? A—Oh. I could blackjack and by brass knuckles not say exactly, Mr. Andrew. It and to a great extent I became in a | might have been a half hour. I

way, I believe, hysterical to a great (don't recall.

extent. I did was doing at the time. and told the boys, I told Ed, I told several of the other boys, that the pill was missing. In fact, I went downstairs and reported the same, what had happened.

Q—Did you have reason to fear, | Mr. Downey, that you would be | kidnaped or assassinated or some- | A—I did not know what |

thing? i would happen when a public official was beaten down in the hall-

way. I did not know what would |

happen to Downey, because I realIv was scared at the time, when I had lost the bill. I did mot know what would become of me. I did not know who I was dealing with or what would occur.

Q—Had you heard anything prior |

to this time about Baker or Cancella to make you think that they were people that would do things

not know what I| I ran up [out there for you? A—I did not.

Q—You knew Baker was waiting

Q—What other bills did vou have [in your pocket when you went out there? A—I could not recall just now, Mr. Andrew. I had several other bills. I had not taken the bills out, the bills that were handed down from the day previous, as I recall. I believe I received a group of bills from the clerk, Q—You carried them all out in the hall way? A-—I put them in | my pocket, It has been a habit with (me, TI carry the bills in my pocket until I looked over them and then I locked them up in my desk. | Q—Isn't it a fact that Mr. Baker was waiting for you out in the hall | way back in the stenographers’ | room? A-—No, sir. Q—Where was he waiting? A-—I | don't know where he was waiting. I met him in the hall way. I don't know whether I met him at the

of this sort? A—No, I did not, but | stenographer room or at the front right after that I did. I heard a |Of the place. I don't recall the in-

jot of stories. Fellows were say-

cident exactly. )

£4

did not know there was any fight. Q—You were down here at the Democratic State convention, A— Right. Q—You knew then, if you knew anything, that there was a quarrel between the factions in Marion

he made certain | County? A-—I thought that had all |

‘been ironed out. I did not know |there was any bad blood existing {in the Ma | Q—You knew there was at the time of the convention? A-—Yes. | We had those in our county, too. Q—You knew Joel Baker was very active, didn't you? | Baker was very active in the faction | that was successful. | Q--And you knew that he was not | friendly to Coy when vou had this | conversation with him? A—I did

[not know that he was not friendly | |

[to Coy. Q—Did you know it after you had the conversation with him? A—I ‘knew that he was not friendly to | Coy after the assault occurred. I (did not think there would be any | such bitterness existing in any faetion. Q—During this session have you ever been up to this Democratic Club that you referred to? sir, IT have not. Q—Who told you that Wayne Coy might be found at the Democratic | Club? A—I was not told that | Wayne Coy could be found. Q—I mean Joel Baker. years ago. Q—I am not talking about two years ago. A—I would like to go back into a history here. Q—I don’t want you to go back in any history. Just answer the questions. Who told you this night that Joel Baker might be found at the Democratic Club? A—I knew that Joel Baker lived or did live there two years ago so I called up there. Q—You told on examination here that you were told Joel Baker might be found at the Democratic Club. A—I believe that ex-Rep. Fred Barrett may have mentioned to me that T might find him there, whom I asked in the afternoon. Q—Yeou knew of Fred Barrett's relationship to Joel Baker, didn’t you? A—I knew Fred was a friend of his, Q—You were here at the 1935 gession? A-VYes, Q—You knew of the connection of Fred Barrett and Joel Baker on the Oleo bill? A—1 believe that I was friendly to Fred Barrett and Joel Baker on the Oleo bill. Q—You knew of their connection? A—] knew they were friendly along those lines. Q--Have you talked to Fred Barrett during this session? A-—I only

A—Two

in |

ion County organization.

A—I1 knew Joel |

A-No, |

talked to Fred the other afternoon, ' of

my room with Pete Cancilla I heard Joel Baker ask for the Harrison

which, and ask for Miss Ferrin’s apartment or Miss Ferrin's room and at the time I paid little or no attention to it, but I tried to recall afterward when this occurred what it was all about and 1 called the Harrison Hotel and I asked for sev-

operator said Miss Ferrin and I

given that apartrment or that room.

Q—Did you talk to anybody there?

AT asked Miss Ferrin if it is Miss |

Ferrin. She says “This is Miss Fer-

| rin,” and I says, “Have you seen Joel |

[Baker or Pete Cancilla.” and she says, “No I have not.

| where they are.

| call me. You don’t know me, have no right to call me.” 1 aoolo- | gized for calling her at the time.

Q—Since | communication with any friends of | Joel Baker? A—I called Joel Baker's [home and talked to his wife. |

| ciates? | have not found any friends or asso- | ciates now. They all seem to be

| telling me I am out on a limb and |

| Miss Church? A—T met Miss Church

| that afternoon. | Q=Do you know Officer Dugan? | A= believe I saw him in the hall- | way here one day. Q-—How did you know it was John Dugan? A—I believe he was pointed

| | out to me to be Mr. Dugan.

| A—No, sir, I do not. | @=Do you

‘mame. I may | see him, | Q—Employed over at the Criminal Court, 1 believe? A—I do not [know the gentleman. Q-—Have you talked to any one with reference to the testimony [that you might give before this | committee? A--No, sir, not to my | knowledge TI have not discussed my | testimony here outside of the testi{mony I gave on the floor of the | House, and I talked to the bays [from the Star the other night | when they came to my room and | asked me about the bill and I said, | “Well, boys, it is true. I have not | got the bill.” Q—Did they make any promises

know the man if 1

of this bill? A—No, sir, no promises were made by any one for the return of this bill. Q—Did they make any promises or threats to you as to what would happen if you did hand this bill down? A-—No, sir. Q—Did they offer you any money or thing of value to keep yon from handing this bill down? A-No, sir, Q—Or to get possession of the bill? A—No, sir. Q—How many times have vou | been entertained by Baker and Can-

|cilla, or &ither one of them during |

| this session? evening | Q—With those two men? A-—Yes, sir,

A—I had dinner one

| ner? A-—At the Harrison Hotel. | Q—What night was that? AI | believe it was oh, early last week, [1 happened in to the Harrison and {had dinner. | Q—As a matter of fact you had | an appointment to meet them there | for dinner, didn't you? A=No, 1 | al not. | Q=You lived at the Claypool Ho- | tel? A-I lived at the Claypool. | Harrison Hotel about dinner time? A—I did. No, it was later than dinner time, it was about 7 o'clock. |’ had come over here to the House |on my way over and 1 was going to | stop over and have a bite to eat. | Q—Do you eat regularly at the | Harrison Hotel? A—I eat at the | Harrison. I eat at all the hotels [around here, Mr. Andrew, because of the fact that one does get tired eating at the same place all the time. T change around for variety. Q—What did you discuss that night at dinner, 'with reference to [pending legislation? A—Very little of anything because Mr. Baker was not in condition to discuss anything. Q—What condition was Mr, Cancilla in? A—He was talking about his teeth. How he would like to [enjoy a steak, as I recall if. Q—What was his condition with reference to being sober? A—Both | had been drinking. Q—Both had been drinking? A— Right. Q—You noticed that when you went in? A—I noticed that Joel Baker had been drinking and he asked me to sit down, Q—You just said you noticed Joel Baker was intoxicated? A-—No, I sat down with them. I believe they had a drink at the table. They asked me if I would have a bite to eat and I believe I decided I would have a bite, I ordered a sandwich. Joel Baker ordered a steak and as I recall, he took about three bites of | the steak and Cancilla was telling | about his teeth and I was in sym- | pathy with him because I am in the same condition. Q—What did you have to drink? A—I believe I had rye whisky. Q—How many drinks did they have while you were there? AI would say one or two. Q—Then they must have been intoxicated when you got there? A-— That is right. Q—You did not hesitate, though, to accept their invitation to sit down there to eat even though you knew they were intoxicated? A-— ' I would not say—I could not tell | they were intoxicated. They were | sitting there. Q—When did you next meet them? A-—That was—. Strike that, Q—You discussed 173 that night? A-—No, I did not. Q—They did not mention it? A— No, sir; 173 was not the subject

Hotel or Pete Cancilla, I don't know |

eral names similar to that and the | says I believe that is it and I was |

I don’t even know the room number, |

the disappearance of | [Senate Bill 173 have you been in|

Q—Any of his friends and asso- | A-—~None whom I know, I]

A—I do not. I don’t know any of |

| Q—Do you know John Dalton? |

know Henry Goetz? | A—I do not know any one by that |

to you with reference to the return |

| Q—Where did you have vour din- |

Q—And you happened in to the |

| that, night, as I recall. Q—You knew at that time that | Cancilla was known as Joel Baker's | bodyguard, didn’t you? A-—I would | not say that he was his bodyguard. | Q=It. was. common. knowledge [that he followed Joel Baker around |as his bodyguard? A=Well, all right. Q—Did it ever occur to you as | strange why Joel Baker would need a bodyguard? A-—No, sir. Q—When you handed 173 over to Joel Baker you knew then that he had a bodyguard following him around? A—=Well, IT knew that Mr. Cancilla was his associate, yet. and if he was his bodyguard, yes. Q-—Did that strike you as strange or make you suspicious of Joel Baker? A-=No, it did not. @-—Did not arouse your suspicion at all? A-—-None at all. Q—You still had great confidence [in Joel Baker? A-—Mr. Andrew I did not have great confidence in | Joel Baker. Q—Knowing all that previously about him? | right. Q—And what you had seen him in an intoxicated condition and eaten with him when he was in- | toxicated and met him in the hall- | ways of the State House in an intoxicated condition and when Can- | cilla was in an intoxicated condition, you still felt perfect trust in handing him Senate Bill 173? A-— I did. Q—As you look back on it now what do you think, were you dumb A~1 was a chump, if you want to know the truth about it. Q—As you look back on it now | with all the circumstances yon should have been suspicious of him, | shouldn't you? A-I should have | been. But I did not look at it in | that light. T had not suspected any- |

vou knew A—That is

| or wise?

think like this.

Q—Did you ever hear them men- | tion Wayne Coy’s name? A-Not | that I recall, Q-—Did you suggest to them or | either one of them that they examine the bill in your presence? A-—No, 1 did not, Mr. Andrew, because of the fact that IT had been [in the custom as committee chairs | man in the past three sessions, the | 1085 regular, the 1936 special and

| this session, to allow people to look | In fact, this is not the |

| over bills, | first time that I ever loaned a hill [out and had it out over night. | Q-—Who else have you loaned bills {to in the 1935, 1936 and 1937 ses- | sions? | terested in them. It has been a prac- | tice with me in my committee, Q—Well, who were they? A—Well,

| now, to recall exactly I could not re- |

| call exactly the people that I have, I have to different department { heads whenever they have asked for | them, I loaned— Q—Outside of State Department | heads, people connected with State | Departments, whom else have you | allowed to have bills? A—Any one who would call and ask for the bill who would identify themselves to be around here.

Q—Well who? Name one... A Not connected with the State Department, well, this session I have not let out that way. This is the only one. Q—=In the 1935 session? can't remember back as exactly, Q—Lobbyvists? were men whom I knew, Q—Do you mean to say that you ever allowed people that were lobbying for or against a bill possession of those bills over night? | A—I believe that I have in the | past, | Q—Have you during this session? | A—I have during this session taken | the bills and passed them out to the members of my committee. Q—Well they are official members of the House. I mean other people | interested in legislation? A-—I believe that I let a delegation take three bills this time to go ahead and work out amendments on them and | get together two factions who were

A=1

| discussing a bill, the contractors and i I believe I let them |

A—To those who were in-|

to who |

A—Providing they |

to have |

Without consulting all the other members of the Committee. Q—Just consulting those whom you wish to contact, is that it? A— That's right. Q—You have had meetings of the Committee and you have held out bills on which you did not wish to contact them? A-—That's common practice, Q—Was Joel Baker sober when you gave him this bill? He was, Q—What time of the day was it? A—It was after we had adjourned. I wouldn't know exactly, but it was | probably 1:30 or 2 o'clock. | Q=Did you see him the next day? | A=1 wvaw him sometime during the | next day. He was over at the House, | Q=Did you ask him then, to give vou the bill? Yes, but he said he was having a copy made. I didn't know whether he was having his girl make it or whether he was to have it done here by the stenographer. | @Q=—Did you know he had the bill

bill te Mr. Beggs in the House, and | did you know he was intoxicated when he showed it to Mr. Beggs?

in his pocket at that time? A-He | told me he didn't. Q-—Did you know he showed the

didn't think there would be any difficulty about it. I thought he would give it back. Q—You knew, didn't you, Martin, as a matter of fact, what Joel Bak=er's reputation was in this communs= ity, didn't you? A--Why, Senator, I would say that I didn't know Joel Baker to have a bad reputation in this community. Q=You mean to tell this committee that since you've been a member of the House of Representatives and frequently were in Indianapolis, and in attendance of the regular sessions and special sessions and possibly made other trips to Indianapolis, you have never heard anything unfavorable about him? A= 1 knew that he was engaged in some bitter political fights, but we have political fights up home and fight like the devil, hut when it's all over we cool down and forget about it. 1 know he had political enemies, but { didn’t know him to be dishonest. Q-—No one had ever discussed the fact that he had a being a crooked politician? A--No. I never knew a thing about that until after this other came up. Q—After this incident, on last

{that assault on Wayne Coy, 1 didn't | [know what to think. I didn't know | what a bunch of people like that lwould do to me. It did have me | scared at the time,

| Q=And after that murderous as[sault on Coy, you still think | that your friends would treat it as a joke—that they would call you [and put you on the pan? A-It's | not impossible. | Q=Well, what do you think about it? A—I don’t think it was a threat. After a few days, when I got to thinking about it, 1 didn’t take it so seriously. Q-=And about this conversation, do you still think they were kid[ing you? A-—I still think so. Q—Mr. Downey, I believe vou stated you received Senate Bill 173. to the best of your recollection, last Friday. A-—T did. Q—And you parted possession of | (it probably within 30 minutes after | you acquired it. A-Yes. Q—And the assault upon Wayne | Coy occurred the following morn- | ing? A-—Yes. Q=1 want to ask whether or not you ever told any members of Judiciary A, of which you are chairman, that you had that bill in committee prior to the assault on Wayne Coy? A==No. Q=You didn’t want the members of the committee to know that you had the bill out. A—No. I thought I could get the bill back and the committee could act on it, Q=You told us a minute ago that you had on previous occasions [loaned other bills. A—Yes, I had. | Q—Is this always your practice, {to refrain from stating to one or more members of vour committee

exactly

| with [ else, over the Welfare bill, | traveled fast, and I began to add it [all up and began to worry about it.

| Kitch, : | Q—John Kitch is a member of the it as 211 Beverly Drive, as I recall 3 | it.

| House, A—Well, he was also there

| and Charlie Lutz was also involved lin it, I loaned him the bill, Q—I don’t mean members of the House, Mr, Downey, I mean lobbyists interested in passage or defeat of bills. A-I could not say. Hank Goebler also was in on that. The whole group. Q—Who is Hank Gaoebler? A—He is a lobbyist or representative of the Federation of the Building Trades. He was involved in this here, they were all together. They wanted to get these three bilis out and get them down for passage, and I believe I called them all up after the meeting and I said, “Here the bills are, gentlemen, if you will get some=where with them I will gladly let you have the bills and prepare amendments and return them at the next meeting.” Q—You are convinced now that that is not a good practice, aren't you? A-I have some suggestions that I could make to this committee that would forever prevent anything like this occurring. Q—Too bad you did not those suggestions before this. I realize that. Q—Mr. Downey, how many meetings of your committee have vou had, as acting chairman of that committee? A-—During this session 1 have called four or five meetings. Q—How many bills have you had before the Committee? A—I don’t exactly know how

have A—

Q-=After this trouble occurred, you did not make any trips to his | house? A=-No. I did not go to his | house, because I didn’t want the | | newspapermen to know that it was (gone, and I felt that if T had been going out there, they would be on | my neck. Q=There was no discussion of the bill on Sunday night, was there? A=No. Q=I'm talking about Monday night—were the newspaper men following you around on Monday night? A=Yes, I think on Monday night, while I was waiting up there to receive a call on the bill, one of them came up, and almost blasted me out of my chair, and he said, “I understand the bil is lost.” I said, “Where did you get that information?” He said, “It just got rumored around.” ¥ denied it to him. Q—Who was this man? A Horace Coates of the Star, Q—Have you told this committee, Martin, substantially the same story that you told Herbert Spencer, the Prosecuting Attorney of Marion County? A=Practically the same story. Q@=You told this committee that | after you acquired possession of Sens ate Bill 173 and went out into the corridor adjoining the House Cham=ber, and saw Mr, Baker, he made some inquiry with reference to the Senate amendments that had been added to the bill, and asked permission to take the bill into his cus-

Monday morning, when Wayne Coy was assaulted and beaten down in the State House, you acquired that knoweledge. You certainly acquired that knowledge rapidly, A--I have learned a lot in the last few days, Q—Up until 12 o'clock noon, on Monday, Joel Baker was a man whom you held in high regard. Is that true? A--I had a lot of re= spect for him, Q-=And within an hour or an hour and a half, you began to worry about being kidnaped or slugged, or beaten up by him. What had you done that caused you to feel he might do this? A=1 had this on my mind. 1 thought if he would

| beat or have one of his friends do a | man like they slugged Wayne Coy,

what would they do to me? Everyhody told me that 1 had got mixed up with a bad bunch, I really began to worry, Q-—=Mr. Downey, you don’t know what the altercation took place over, did you? A=I don’t

| know, outside of the fact that Pete

Cancilla had, as 1 heard, stopped Coy and hauled off and hit him a blackjack and everything Rumor

Q--On these previous occasions, when you met and talked with and on one or two occasions had drinks with Baker and Cancilla, in their conversation with you they dis= cussed on at least two occasions the Welfare bill, didn’t they? A--We discussed it in reference to having it amended; that I might probably amend the bill on the floor, or hold a public hearing. Q—On at least one of these occasions, Baker or Cancilla spoke about Wayne Coy in no uncertain language, and his hostility toward him, didn't he? AI wouldn't say that he did, If he did he didn't convey that impression to me. Q—Wasn't there any discussion on these occasions about Wayne Coy having a lot to do with the passage of the Welfare Bill, and that it was very unfavorable to the Marion County setup. Isn't that true? A-==After the bill came up,

[1 met him back in the Speaker's

office and he said he wanted that bill out. Then I learned that Wayne Coy was very much interested in this bill, Q=-You didn't know that Wayne Coy, as State Director, had a great deal to do with that bill? A-~No. Q=Did you tell Wayne Coy, back in the Speaker's room, that you had parted with the bill? A==No. Q-—You stated that you got a call from downstairs, Do you mean you had a call to the Governor's office? A—-Yes, Q—The Governor wanted to talk about this bill? A--No. The Gover= nor wanted to talk to me about some other matters, Q-—-This bill wasn’t metioned? A ~I don’t believe 1 expressed myself right there. The Governor told me it was an Administration bill, and that he wanted it through as soon as possible, because it was a bill pro= viding for the State to assume part of the County relief work, and 13 counties would be unable to operate until it was passed. Of course there were some other things I don't feel free to tell about here. Q-—Did he express any dissatis= faction at the fact that there hadn't been any action taken about getting 173 out of committee? A-— It wasn't until then that I learned | that he was materially interested | | then that it was an important bill, | Q—But you were apprised at ihat | time, when you had had Senate | least three days, and that was | what Coy saw you about, and that was what the Governor wanted to know about. A-That's right. | Q=Did you tell anyone at that | time that you had parted with the | bill and who had the custody of | it? A-—I might have mentioned to | Dick Heller that Joel Baker had it, | Q==And did Heller say anything | at that time about Joel Baker having the bill in his possession? A He told me to get it back, I guess. Q=Was it prior to your going downstairs or after going upstairs again that you saw Joel Baker, A= It was prior to going downstairs, When I was summoned to the Gov. ernor’s office, I was summoned by the colored man, and he was with me when I saw Joel Baker, I said, “Joel, I want 173. I'm going down stairs to the Governor's office~I don’t know what about, but I want to have that bill with me. That was when he mumbled something like, “Go to hell!” It wasn't until that time that I realized that the man I was dealing with, well, wasn't quite a gentleman, Q—After he mumbled this expression that you were not certain about, did you have any further conversation with him? A-No, I turned around and immediately went to the Governor's office. Q=You say to this Committee that this was the last time you saw Joel Baker? A-I came upstairs to look for him, but that was the last time I saw him. Q-—=Where was hein the House smoke room or in the middle of the

office. Not to my knowledge, Q-=Have you ever been over to Joel Baker's office. A==I have been. Q-==Before or after the assault? A=I was at Joel Baker's office somes time last sammer, I believe, 1 was downtown, I had business downtown and 1 was poking along, and | happened to notice that there was the welfare office and 1 dropped in and looked over the welfare office, Q—But you haven't been down there this session? A-<Not =antil after the bill disappeared. Q-—Did you know that this hill had been in Judiciary in the Sens ate? A-—1 didn't know where it had been in the Senate. 1 believe I slarted to leave the bill and I didn't pay very much attention to where it was. 1 haven't checked the Senatas register, I want to make this states ment: 1 have been duped in this matter. I'm very sorry it happened, and I'm very willing to help this committee to get to the bottom of

reputation of |

it. It has been a severe ktrain [ upon me, Q—Do you have any idea whers [ this man Cancilla can be located? | A—T1 learned in Hallie Myers’ today «1 believe it was Hallie Meyers'—or romeone over there, that Joel was in Florida. That's the only infors mation I had. @—1 believe you stated a whila back that Baker and Cancilla spoka something about this bill prior to your acquisition of it, and said when you got it, they wanted to see if. A=-1 believe that he mentioned it to the extent that they wanted to sca the hill if it came to my committees, That's right. | Q=Didn’t they ask you if it wasn't going to be assigned to your coms mittee? A=1 don’t recall. 1 bes lieve they were under that impress sion, Q==Nevertheless, within a matter of minutes after you had acquired the bill, you happened to run into Joel Baker and he asked you for it, A--I came oul and had something to eat, and then 1 went back toward | that way, and met him right in the center there, I had the hill then. And he spoke to me and asked me if 1 had the bill, and he took the bills out of my pocket. The bills were all separate, in that there wera rubber bands on each individual bill, and I think I had two or three bills. I'm not sure just how many, I'm sure I had at least two or three besides that one. Well, he took them all out of my pocket, and picked out the one he wanted, Q=Well, Mr. Downey, you didn't even know, yourself, at the time, | that 173 was the Welfare bill, A= didn’t know it was the Welfare bill. I didn’t know, in fact, I had ne knowledge that the Senate had caucused on the bill, and I had neo knowledge that it was such an important bill, until I went downstairs into the Governor's office. Q-=Notwithstanding that Baker had spoken to you at least twice about the bill, you didn’t realize it was important? A-That’s right, Q-—What significance did you ate tach to that after it came into your possession. A-I realized that it must be very important, when I learned that the Senate had caus cused on the bill, Q-Martin, Monday afternoon you had a gun. A—Monday afternoon I had a gun. After the hysteria was aroused around the State House here, 1 went over and started look ing in the Harrison, learned that Joel had been there, had been drinking. I learned of this and came back to the State House, went downstairs to see Dick Heller. 1 don't know if Don Stiver was there or not, but I had learsed that 1 was mixed in with an awful bunch, Well I did get a gun that afternoon. I went over to the hotel to my room and obtained a revolver which I carry at all times at home on ace count of the fact that I am hands ling a matter. up home for my father that requires me to carry a sum of money at all times, Q=And you had a plain clothes man guarding you. A=No, I did not have a plains clothes man following me. Q=You had a man acling as a bodyguard, A-=No, At no time have I had a bodyguard. It was probably one of my friends walking with me, Q==Didn’t you tell me you had a cop guarding you? A=I told you I was offered a bodyguard. Q==Who offered you a guard? A--I was offered a guard by Dick Hele ler, here in the State House. I went down and 1 told him 1 was

hall when you say him? A-~Near

(

worried about it, and he said he would arrange with Stiver for a guard, Q-—What happened that put von into such fear? A-—This assault, 1

in the bill and I didn’t know until | didnt know who these fellows were.

I learned by rumor that Clary had had a similar attempt made on him. Q-~What I'm trying to get out 1s

| Bill 178 in your possession for at |“ Were you afraid of Baker's crowd,

or were you afraid of someone else? =I was afraid that seme of his crowd, it there was a crowd. would jump onto me, or kidnap me. Q@-Had you done anything that would cause them to kidnap vou, or do you personal violence? A—I don't know what they might do to me, in order to keep me from saying anys thing, They were in opposition to the bill. They might do something to keep me from making a report, Q=-What kind of a report could you make? A--The only report I could make to the House was that the bill was missing. If the bill was missing and I was missing, the suse picion might be that I took it. If they would go so far as to do that to Wayne Coy, they might go so far as to do me the same way, Q=Were any threats made to you? A=That afternoon I got a telephone call, I don’t know who it was, Thought it might be some of the boys. But I was panicky, when I got the call, and it didn’t do my nerves any good, Q-=What time was it when yon got the call? A<Around 2 o'clock. Q=-Who was it? A-I don’t know, Q-=An anonymous call? A-VYes, Called me this, that and the other, Q-~What had you done to cause them to curse you? A=I don't know what I had done. That is just the thing. I was just a bundle of nerves, Q—Was it the fact that Wayne Coy had been assaulted? AI didn’t know what would happen to

me. Q-=Did you go down and tell Dick (Turn to Page 12)