Indianapolis Times, Indianapolis, Marion County, 5 March 1937 — Page 30

| [BSCE 30

J [ Transcript of Testimony Before Baker Investigating Committee

THE INDIANAPOLIS TIMES °

FRIDAY, MARCH 5, 1937

(Continued from Page One)

disappearance of 173 about that bill? A—Not with reference to the bill, no. The question of the bill was never discussed.

Q—He has never made any planation to you? A-—Never ferred to it. Q—Or to Judiciary A in your Committee meetings as to the dis- | appearance of 173? A—He did not. I might advance this information too. During the afternoon I was seated over on the side waiting for another meeting or something. I de not know what I was waiting for. Downey came over to me and he says this thing looks serious. I really believe they are going to kidnap me. I said “That is what you told me before.” He said, “This is really bad.” He showed me a gun he was carrying and said that the only ones that knew about the possible kidnaping in the House was Denton and I and Stein knew about it and also the Governor had knowledge of it. So I just figured it was some of his wild and woolly tales and paid no further attention to it. Q—Did he say who the kidnapers were? A-—No. | Q—Did he give any reasons for | § his fear of being kidnaped? A—No, | § he gave no reasons. Wait a minute, | He left the impression that they | wanted to keep his bills in the com- | mittee. | §] Q—Who did he mean by they? | A—He did not sav. And I paid very | : little attention to him, otherwise I would have questioned him, if I had | § thought there was something more | to it. Q-—Did he show any evidence of | being intoxicated at the time? A— No, I am confident he was not. + Q—Judiciary A never had hearing on 173? A—Not to knowledge. | Q-—Nor it was never considered in |

: . | conversation with Downey since 5

exre- |

any my

Senator Martin J. Cleary (D. Ft

: {the General Assembly?

1 Q—Mr. O'Brien, who assisted you in getting your position as file clerk? A—Mr. Kline—Joe Kline from Lake County. Q—From Gary? A-—Yes. Q—Mr. Downey have any part or | play any part in securing your present position? A-—None whatsoever. Q—Did anyone ever talk to you about this Senate Bill 173? A—No. Q—Did anyone ever ask you to turn over any bills to them when they had no authority to receive any bills? A—No, not that I recall. Just the members of the House, I | believe are the only ones supposed | to have these House bills. | Q—No outsider has ever asked you to turn over any bills to them? A— No, sir. Q—How many other file clerks are there? A-—I have an assistant. Q—Do you know whether there has been any demands on your as- | sistant? A—Not to my knowledge.

SEN. CLAUDE F. M'BRIDE

Q—You may state your name to the committee. A-—Claude B. Mc- | Bride, attorney, Jeffersonville, Joint | Senator from Clarke,

married and living with my wife and two daughters. | Q—Senator, are you one of the {authors of Senate Bill 173 that was | introduced in the present session of A—I am.

: | My name was signed by proxy.

Q—You remember when that par-

§ | ticular bill was introduced in the

' | Senate?

. Wayne) at committee hearing.

Q—1937? A—193T7.

Q—Do vou know how long that] session lasted that evening, when |

| delivered it to Mr. Downey?

sion. I was at a meeting of Judiciary A Committee when Downey

explained the disappearance of Pat

bill. A—I was not at that meeting.

| Q—Mike, correcting one impres- | |

it adjourned? A—No, I can't tell you. I think around—no, I can't | tell you how long it lasted. | Q—Do you have any knowledge of an attempt made to break into the |

A= Yes, sir.

Q—Have vou ever seen that par- | ticular bill since you delivered it to

Mr. Downey? A—No, sir. Q—Do vou know the date when you did deliver it? A—No, sir. Q—Do vou know what week it was? Present week or last week? A—Well, it must have been before

"| Q-=—What the Committee would

| like to know, Senator, is after the introduction of such a hill did any- | one talk to you concerning the bill? | A—Well, I got a lot of hell from down home for signing it because | it was adverse to home rule. That | is the only—nobody in Indianapolis. | No person who is a resident of In- | dianapolis. That is what you want

Jefferson, | | Switzerland and Ohio, 54 years old, |

guage he used here—He said, “That no good cross-back Catholic so-and-SO is no good” and he said, “Joel Baker is over there now having the bill killed.” I said, “Well, Officer, you also happen to be a Catholic and so am I and I said I don’t believe that those remarks should be made because I happen to be an intimate friend of Mike Morrissey and I don't pick my friends by their religion. I pick them by who they are.” He said, “Well, the bill will probaby be killed,” and I walked |away. That is the first words I had { with him. Now, this particular conversa- | tion you are telling us about, when | was it, with reference to the time of | the attack on Mr. Wayne Coy? A— | It happened that morning, I believe, | Senator, or the morning before. I | believe it was the same morning. It | was the morning before or that | same morning, | Q—Here in the corridor of the | State House? A-—In the corridor of | the State House and that was the | same morning or possibly the morn- | ing before, that Senator Sexton and | this officer had their words about | the same bill. Q—Did you hear those words? A —TI did not. | Q-—Senator Fitzgerald came back {to my desk and said that this officer was giving Sexton a lot of abuse in the lobby over this particnlar bill and asked me if T wanted to go out, because of the fact that I was an intimate friend of Sexton's, and I told him that I figured Sexton could take care of himself and that is all I know about that. Q—Now, after this conversation with this particular officer, I believe You told us what his name was? A—Dalton. Q—D-a-1-t-0-n? A—That is right. Q—What is his first name? A-—I don’t know myself—John Dalton. Q—Was he at that time a member of the Indianapolis Police Force? A—As I understand it, Senator, he is a member, detailed to the Criminal Court as a special investigator. Q—Do you know who presides over the Criminal Court in the City of Indianapolis? A-—Judge Baker, as I understand it. Q—Did you have any more con-

versations with that particular officer? A—I did not until after the Wayne Coy trouble was over that afternoon. Q—You remember the particular

| to know, isn’t it? Q—Nobody in Indianapolis talked | to you? A-—No, some of the folks | from down home who came to In-

*§as held? A—Oh, yes.

At no time was I at a meeting when | safe in the Senate Chamber in| 173 was discussed, to my knowledge. | which bills were kept? A—The only Q—After this bill was lost and | knowledge I have of that was Mr. | gfter the assault on Wayne CoV, Gordon told me last Monday mornDowney called a meeting of the | ing when I came in the State committee and made an explanation | House that some one tried to get of the loss of the bill. You were not | into the Engrossing Room and in| present at that meeting? A—I was | the safe, he thought to get a bill. | not present at that meeting. | That is the only knowledge I have Q—Mr. Schaeffer, you don't know | of it. Joel Baker, do vou? A-—No, never| Q-—You have no knowledge vourseen the man to my knowledge. I self? A—No, sir, I have not. Only don’t know him. just hear-say. Q—As a matter of fact Judiciary A had few, if any meetings, until after the changing of chairmen? A—I attended no meetings at all I think I atThose were

WILBUR P. O'BRIEN

Jrevious to that. ended two meetings. the ones Denton was at. Q-—Downey as chairman of that Committee never requested committee meetings? A—No, the only thing— Q—Prior to Denton’s taking over the control and chairmanship of | House? A—Yes. the committee Mr. Downey who Q—And what position do you hold | Was then chairman never requested | with the House of Representatives? your attendance at any committee | A—Filing clerk. meetings? A—No. . ; Q—You have been the filing clerk | _Q—During the entire session? A—| quring all this session? A—Yes, sir. | 0 Q—As filing clerk did you have | or Tues-| possession of Senate Bill 133, com- | day when Mr. Denton took over the | monly known as the Welfare Act? | thairmanship? A—Right. In the | A_yes sir. | very beginning he brought up, as| Q_can you tell this Committee | well as I remember, either six or| when you received such a bill? A— four sheets and asked that I sign | well, no, sir, I don't remember the | them. It was during the session | exact date because I don't rememso I asked him what they referred | her the bills as they come in. I to. He said “Just go ahead and | gon't know the numbers. : sign them.” I said “No, I am not! Q_ well, was it last week? A—Nbo going to sign them.” He said, “It iS sir I never seen the bill last week. | all right. I will show you the bills Q—Or the present week. pn vou afterward.” I said, “No, I am not tell> A__No. sir going to sign anything unless I| Q_From whom did vou receive | now what I am signing.” He said, such Hill? A—wWell I got it from | “Go ahead and sign them.” So I Flemming. He is the Enrolling signed my O. K: on them but I Clerk I believe, Mr. Flemming. bave never seen what bills they| Q_The Enrolling Clerk of were. : House? A—Yes, sir. Q—Mike, we did have a hearing | Q—How long was the bill in your on two or three different bills. A— | possession when it came to you? A— Well, it might be that I did not see Until the chairman of the commitfhe notice posted. I did not attend | tee takes it on. them, at least. I know there was | Q—And did you deliver this bill one hearing one evening that you | te the chairman of this particular feferred to and asked me to come | committee? A—Well, he came up to but I had another meeting that | and took the bill from me and I might. I don’t even remember what | don’t remember the date that he bill that was. | teok it, but I have the receipt for { Q—There were two or three hear- | the bill.

Q—You may state your name to the committee. A—Wilbur Patrick | O'Brien. Q—Are you an emplovee of the | State Senate at the present session? | A—House.

Q—You are an employee of the

Q—Until last Monday

the

| last week because we have 462 bills | dianapolis discussed it with me,

now and it must have been about four weeks ago. Q—This is a Senate bill? A— That is right. Well, it must have been last week. I don't know for sure. Q—You have no independent recollection? A—No, sir. Q—All you did was make a notation that you delivered that particular bill to Downey? A—Yes, sir. Q—And vou have not seen it since that time? A-—No, sir. Q—Mr. Downey ever talk to you about that particular bill after that?

particular bill? A-—Not that I can | | recall, no.

| show the date that bill was received?

| ceipts?

A—No, sir. 3 Q—Did you date the receipt? A— not? A—I am not. Never seen the Well, the first bills they take out I man. . make out the receipt on that date | Q—Never met him? and from then on I just add the any of his gangsters. numbers of the bill on to the list. Witness excused. Q—Did any one at any time other | than Mr. Downey ask you for that |

A-—No, nor

SEN. MARTIN J. CLEARY

Q—Of course your journal will | Q—State your name. A—Martin (J. Cleary. A—It should, yes. | Q—Your official business? Q—Do you have any other record | State Senator, Allen County. ist Sous >, Wn AS Chale You are not one of Hie authors n : me LY, v lo enate Bill 173? A-—No, am usually got his bills every day or oP ' every other day. ....| Q—Afier Senate Bill 173, comQ—You mean he took Phe bills | monly known as the Welfare Act, out as they came in? oY ig when | Vas introduced in the State Senate Q—Now, do 3 ou HN er Ae | did any one talk to you at all about Je nok this particular ' '| that bill? A—Why, here is the re- . | marks that were made, Senator. I ” -] » Q—Is Shere a a ey | went out to the concession stand to I 11 is Ja n 3a R ; P | get some cigars and Officer Dalton recall 1s Jan. 1a. {of the Indianapolis Police Depart-

Q—This is one of the first re- |. hs : Bas. ceipts and you merely added the inent walked over to me and said:

number of the bill to an old re-| ° ny ceipt? A—Yes, on that receipt, yes, | bill over in the house sir | passes will make Mike Q—Did you ever make any effort Permanent Chief of Polic in Indianto get that bill back, 173? A—No. apolis.” TI said, “No, I don’t know Q—You never asked, made any |2nything about that particular bill,” demand on the Chairman to return [and he said, “Well,” he said, “That it to vou? A—There was no reason | no good—I don't want to use the lanson |

that if it

[|“Do you know that there is a lousy |

Morrissey |

date of the assault upon Wayne Coy here in the corridor of the State House? A—I do not remember the particular date, Senator, no. Q—Well, calling your attention to that particular incident, did you have another conversation with this same officer? A—I had no more otherwise than over the telephone vesterday. Q—Yesterday? A—Yes. Q—You may tell the Committee what that was. A—Well, Officer Dalton called me on the telephone and told me that he had talked to Chief Morrissey about the incident and that he was sorry that it happened. He said he felt that we had both got excited and I said I held nothing against him personally and had no desire to do anything to hurt him and that I would be glad to go to Morrissey and ask Morrissey if he would be kind enough, as far as I was concerned, not to involve me in any of their Indianapolis Police Department affairs; that my only wish was that the Senators would be treated as gentlemen in the lobby of the Statehouse. That is all there was to it. Q—Did you have any conversation with any other citizen of Indianapolis concerning this particular bill? A—No, I never had any conversation at all in regard to the bill one way or the other. Q—1Is this all that you know about this particular matter? A—That is all IT know about the particular bill. Q—You did not see Wayne Coy Nationally Known

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Q—One other thing—have you noticed any indication that anyone tried to break in the safe to get any of the bills? A—No, sir. Eddie opens the safe; Mr. Beggs, opens the safe. | Q—Kave you got the combina- | tion? A—No, sir. Q—Anybody else have it besides Beggs?

hes and some rather informal! Q—Who was the chairman and meetings in the corner of Judiciary | of what committee? A—Mr. Downey Committee A. A—Yes. is the chairman of Judiciary A. : Q—In the House? A—Yes, Q—You have in your possession his official receipt for the bill? A— | No, I gave the receipt to Mr. Beggs. He is the Chief Clerk. Q—Have you seen the receipt since that time? A-—No, sir. Q—Receipt was signed by Downey? A—No, it was not.

JOHN HOFF

: Q—You may state your name to | Committee. A-—John Hoff. | { Q—What official position, if any, @o vou hold with the present Legslature? A—Chief Door Keeper of Q—Receipt was not signed by he Senate ; | Mr. Downey? y ' ~ . u % . Q—Mr. Hoff, IT will hand you this | Loo"

hi > reporter will | fnstrument which the reporter wi | Downey was because he had taken

mark as Exhibit No. 1, and ask you | : fo tell the Committee what it is. A— | Some bills out and he had taken That is the receipt that—a copy of | them out in such a hurry and I did $he receipt that Mr. Gordon gave Not get time to get his signature so e that the receipt was given to Yr : r. Gordon to get from Eddie Knew who had the bill. eggs, I believe it is, the Clerk of | Q—He did not sign a receipt for he House. | it? A—No. Q—Showing the delivery of par- | ficular bills? A—That is right. § QI will ask you, Mr. Hoff, if |

Mr.

you? A-—No, sir. Q—You are sure, are you, you

sir, |

A—I believe that tne | was not signed by Mr. |

I just marked down Downey so I

Q—Was the bill ever returned Ye

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Q—You may state what date that | was. A—Twenty-fourth of Febru- |

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struck? A—No, I was in the Senate, Senator, and came out of the Senate about five minutes after it happened and they had Wayne Coy down in the lobby here in one of the other offices and I walked down here with Senator Fitzgerald and at that time they had taken him away. We had thought he was in there. Q—Did this policeman talk to you about this Indianapolis Merit Bill or about this Public Welfare Bill 173? A—He was, as I understood it, the day that he and I had the argument he was referring to this Indianapolis Police Bill. Q—Did anyone ever talk to you about this Public Welfare Bill? A— No, no one ever said anything to me about the Public Welfare Bill. I had no conversation at all about the Welfare Bill. Q—Just what—I did not understand, Senator, what did he say about Joel Baker? A—He merely said that Joel was over in the House having the bill killed.

Q—That is the Merit Police Bill? A—That is the Merit Police Bill, yes. Q—Is was not the Welfare Bill at all? A—No, he was not talking to me about the Welfare Bill at that time. Q—Do you know Joel Baker? A-— I know Joel Baker, yes. Q—Did you talk to him at all? A—I have not talked to Joel Baker at all. I spoke to Joel Baker in the Harrison Hotel last Friday evening. Merely said “how-do-you=-do” to him and shook hands. Q—Was that after the Wayne Coy incident? A—No, that was after, I believe, our first night session. I have not seen Joel Baker since that time. Q—Senator Cleary, you made a statement on the floor of the Senate subsequent to the assault on Wayne Coy on the lower floor of the State House or wherever it took place. I thought I understood you to say this same officer, John Dalton, made some remark about you might have some difficulty getting back to the Claypool. A—That happened on the afternoon. Q—Then you afterward had a talk with Officer Dalton? A-—That is right. I had a talk to him at the concession stand in the afternoon after— Q—At possibly the same place you had your former conversation with him? A-—That is right. Q—That was after Wayne Coy was assaulted? A—That was after Wayne Coy— Q—Did this man approach you or did you stop him? A—I was standing there talking to two people when Dalton and another officer came up and I said I thought that that was a disgraceful thing and 1 fd} whoever done it should be punished and referred to—he said he did not think Coy was any good and he said that it would probably do him good to have a good beating, and I said 1 did not feel that way about it, the Senate and Legislature and Governor should take some action. He said “the best thing for you to do is to go back in there and look after your affairs. Be sure you get back to the hotel all right.” Q—Be sure to do what? I did not get that? A—Be sure I get back to the hotel. Q—Did he make any further statement about your having some difficulty in getting back to the

hotel? A-—That is exactly what he said. Q-=Now, at the time this conversation took place did he take you over to the side away from these two friends of yours from Ft. Wayne? A-—They walked away and these two officers took me by the arm and said to me: “You better get back in there and look after your own affairs, you are liable not to get back to the hotel.” Q—Did you make any reply? A—I merely said that I would look after myself and went back into the Senate. Q—This man in plain clothes at that time? A-—That is right. Q—He was not under the infiuence of liquor, was he? A—I would not want to say that about anybody. Q—Did you make any observation? A—In my judgment I would not say that he was under any influence. Q—It was subsequent to that conversation that you made the statement on the floor of the Senate? A-—That is correct. Q—When did you have this tele-

phone conversation? A—Yesterday afternoon. . Q—That was after he had been demoted? A—He called me yester~ day afternoon and asked me if I would talk to Morrissey about it and he apologized and said he was sor- | ry that the incident happened and ' 1 told him I had no desire in the | world to have any member of the Indanapolis Police Department de- ' moted., It meant nothing to me. All | I was interested in was seeing that | we were treated with the proper re- | spect hee in the State House and I | did talk to Morrissey and told Mog~ | rissey that I had no wish that any family would suffer by anything that might have happened I was sorry that the incident took plach. It was no fault of mine. . Q—Had you, prior to his demoe tion, any occasion to appear before the board having charge of the afe fairs of the Indianapolis Police De- | partment? A-—No, Senator, accords | ing to the newspapers this gentlee [man was demoted by the time I go (Turn to Page 43) .

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